Slip and slide?

This is a discussion on Slip and slide? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; One of my main objections to using 9mm and .45 ACP caliber revolvers for serious defensive purposes is my aversion to moonclips in a carry ...

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Thread: Slip and slide?

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Slip and slide?

    One of my main objections to using 9mm and .45 ACP caliber revolvers for serious defensive purposes is my aversion to moonclips in a carry gun. They're thin and gimmicky and just a pain in the butt. It seems to me to defy the whole point of a revolver: the ability to simply insert the catridge and go without having to fumble around with a magazine or racking a slide.

    However, the thought occurs to me that good, quality ammunition like you'd actually carry often has an extra level of finishing to it, it seems.

    What I mean to point out is that cheap but serviceable Winchester White Box ammunition, after I've fired about 10 rounds or so, does not just naturally slip out of my cylinder. I have to use the extractor.

    OTOH, most premium catridges like Gold Dots and Gold Sabers and Winchester Super X, etc. seem to simply slip out under gravity. You can simply tip the muzzle upwards at an angle of 45 degrees or so and the spent casings slide out nice and smooth without so much as a tap or a jiggle. This is I believe a design feature of good ammunition to encourage proper cycling and greater reliability. If you simply point the muzzle straight up the casings fall right out.

    This got me to thinking.

    It seems most revolvers that use "rimless" catridges do not rely on moonclips for holding the ammunition in the cylinder, but rather the moonclip provides a means by which to extract the spent casings. It gives something to push against.

    Being the curious sort that I am, I propose a question:

    If one were to use premium ammunition only, would it be feasible to use for personal defense a revolver chambered in a rimless cartridge sans moonclips?

    Hear me out on this: I submit you haven't lost the ability to reload by not using the moonclips. You simply have to make it a point to point the gun up while the cylinder is open and I'd imagine the spent casings would simply fall out. True you are losing the security blanket of an extractor, but if you've only fired 6-12 rounds of premium ammunition and your gun was clean in the first place, I think you'd be okay.

    .45 ACP should fit in a .45 LC sized speedloader I'd think... but I know 9x19 does not fit in a .357/.38 sized loader. I don't know if .40 or 10mm could fit in any conventional HKS speedloader. Regardless you could just as easily get some MTM ammo wallets.

    What you gain however is a world of great ammunition choices in a well proven caliber. It's a little weird but I don't see the problem beyond making sure you do lots of tests, use premium ammuntion, and make darn sure your shootin' iron is clean.

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Moon Clip also Headspaces the cartridges in most guns no moon clip rounds wont site right ... I would see nothing wrong with carrying a moon clipped wheelie as long as ya use good ammo .. sure cases stick from WWB i find it to be very dirty ammo

  4. #3
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    Much as I love my M25 - and the use of moonies - for serious carry - no - with moonies or without. The headspace aspect is important and ensures a good pin stike tho I know sometimes you can loose load... they say!

    Moonie fans praise the speed of reloads - I agree up to a point - but also I would not want a loose round reload - it'd have to be a speedloader as good as a Comp series. I use Comp 1's for my snub ... and would like some Comp 3's for N frames too.

    So - for me - ''conventional'' - revo's for rimmed, and good speedloaders.
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Please note I have no intention of actually doing this. It's just food for thought.

    I honestly feel that if you are married to one of these calibers just do yourself a favor and get an autoloader. It does piss me off somewhat how they could easily make these same catridges with a little rim around the edge so we could use them in wheelguns though.

    9mm snubby... sweet.

  6. #5
    Former Member Array The Tourist's Avatar
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    You guys beat me to the punch. There is the headspace aspect.

    Also, if a casing seals properly during ignition, it shouldn't just 'fall out' of the cylinder. Granted, some cartiridges are plated to aid feeding and extraction, but they must seal.

    Is there a burn mark on one side of your spent casings? Pierced primers?

    If the 9x19 is your cartridge, and the revolver is your choice, SW made a small revolver about ten years ago with an odd shaped ejector rod and star that used tranditional rimless ammo, but with no half-moon clips. I forget the model number. I'll google it, and if I find it, I'll do an edit.

    edit: I can't find it. I found pics of the 940, but they all say they need half moons. I even found a 940 in 356TSW. I know I saw the piece in a magazine. In fact, for a brief period they made rimmed 9mm ammo, very much like the .45 Auto Rim.
    Last edited by The Tourist; April 24th, 2005 at 01:46 AM.

  7. #6
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    Almost wish I'd bought a 9mm SP-101 when they were around. Duane over on Rohrbaugh forum has one and he has just had it ''tweaked''. Look HERE it's a nice piece..
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    One Thought

    You need to decide if you are going to program yourself for serious defensive shooting with a revolver...or not.
    When you fire off a cylinder full & then crack open that wheel gun you should be instantly and automatically ejecting that spent brass by force and "force of habit" & not tipping your revolver to see if they will just fall out...or not.
    You honestly need to practice & mentally ingrain your reload actions in order to prepare yourself to act defensively in an actual scenario.
    You should be auto~smacking that brass out of there pronto & trying to accomplish your reload ASAP and OFTEN...if not all the time! ~ Just my suggestion.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Good point QK!

    That's part of the problem here. It goes against the manual of arms for a modern revolver.

    It's just something I like to ponder. I hate maintaining a separate caliber for each new gun and I'm always looking for some way to successfully use at least one caliber in both platforms, but it just doesn't exist at any practical level.

    I have a dream, and it is to have an assortment of pistols in all the major formats that all use compatible ammunition because it would be so much easier... It would be so much easier if I could just buy buckets and buckets of one caliber and be happy. Well I can dream can't I?

  10. #9
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    Thumbs up Some Day

    Some day very soon your dream may just come true.
    There is some TOTALLY AMAZING stuff sitting out there on the horizon still in the R&D stages. Variable lethality handguns with no moving parts where you can instantly select if you want to stun or stop. There is already a working prototype of that one. I just saw it being fired on TV the other day.
    Electronic and "smart" and layered multi alloy bullets.
    It's all out there waiting "in the wings" right now.
    My gut feeling is that Defensive Shooting is going to "Wear A Brand New Face" in the next 10 years.

  11. #10
    Former Member Array The Tourist's Avatar
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    QKS,

    I've seen the same gun, sort of like a "Judge Dredd" gun.

    Do you think the general population will ever be offered that firearm?

    I say that because about 3 years ago a military firearm, basically a 10mm Auto case necked down to .224, was tested in a gun magazine. Although a complete schematic with meassurements was printed, they warned that this was a "military firearm only."

    Obviously, there's a section of society that believes a superior firearm is for police/military only.

  12. #11
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    Tourist

    I sure would hope so.
    If I could carry a firearm that would 100% instantly stop rather than kill...I sure would buy it.
    But, then what would happen?
    Would all of our great, classic "regular firearms" of today...that are "kill only" and NOT variable...become obsolete and banned for carry purposes?
    Probably.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

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