9mm...actual use

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Thread: 9mm...actual use

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
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    Thanks for the report.

    Do you, or can you get, any information on bullet deformation and expansion?

    Thanks,

    Josh <><

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  3. #17
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    We in the US (and to some extent Mexico from what I hear) are very partial and protective of the .45 ACP but we must realize that the rest of the world shoots 9mm and that particular round has been killing lots of people for a century or so. And with modern bullet design some experts say that the stopping power of a 9mm is almost like the one for the .45 acp
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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  4. #18
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    He was shot with an entire mag of 9mm JHP at "spittin distance" and still "staggered around a bit and collapsed ". Had this guy been armed, he could have done a lot of damage while staggering around a bit.
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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array Ti Carry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obxned View Post
    He was shot with an entire mag of 9mm JHP at "spittin distance" and still "staggered around a bit and collapsed ". Had this guy been armed, he could have done a lot of damage while staggering around a bit.
    True, but put that same 9mm in trained hands and it's lights out. The kid admitted that he had never shot a gun before so I am sure shot placement was of no concern.

    There is a big difference in just shooting and shooting for shot placement.

    Thank's for the first account HG's.


    Ti
    Last edited by Ti Carry; August 5th, 2007 at 02:07 AM.
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  6. #20
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  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    I understand the over-penetration issue in theory, but has there just aren't that many cases (that I can find, anyway) of any pistol round penetrating a BG and hitting a GG (Live Free or Die Hard doesn't count!). Does anyone have any links to cases like this? They'd be much appreciated....

    That being said, two holes are generally better then one...
    Not necessarily. The fact that the bullet exited means that it still had energy left that could have been put to better use causing internal damage. Ideally it would come to rest just below the surface of the skin on the exit side. That would indicate it had used all it's energy over the longest possible path. Bleeding is bleeding be it internal or external, so you don't really need the extra exit wound. Once the vessels are severed, blood pressure will drop no matter what.

    Like was stated, even though ideal conditions weren't met, it had the intended effect.
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  8. #22
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    That may be true for a human. I'd much rather have an exit hole on a deer though, it leaves a much better trail.

    In the event that major blood arent severed, I'd still rather have an exit wound...as less clotting could take place that could possibly shut off the entrance wound.
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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by purple88yj View Post
    The 5 in, 5 out is what bothers me about the 9mm the most. I realize that there are some magnificent platforms out there, and that the 9mm is nearly as old as the .45ACP, but the high-speed combined with the low weight just seems creepy to me.
    9mm Luger is actually older than .45 ACP.
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  10. #24
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    In human "beans" entrance wounds w/ no exit wounds do not bleed much.
    An entrance wound that is a fast killing shot with no exit wound is pretty much a no bleeder because the circulation has halted.
    Exit wounds make a mess.
    Always and regardless of cheap ammo or expensive ammo - from .22 short all the way up the ammo chain - shot placement is King.
    You gotta get em where they need to go for a fast stop.

    Good story HotGuns.
    Be real careful out there.
    It's a goofy and dangerous world when you put yourself into the action as part of the ol' job.

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    Does my sensitive moderator nose detect the faint fetid scent of a .9mm VS .45acp debate wafting in the not so distant breeze?

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array Cap'n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obxned View Post
    He was shot with an entire mag of 9mm JHP at "spittin distance" and still "staggered around a bit and collapsed ". Had this guy been armed, he could have done a lot of damage while staggering around a bit.
    The OP stated the victim was shot (5) times. If the shot placement is not directed to take out the central nervous system, staggering around a bit before collapsing can happen with any handgun caliber (yes even .45). You are relying totally on blood loss with any shot other than a shot to the central nervous system.

    Place your shots where they count.

    Good story HotGuns.
    Sometimes us 9mm guys need a story like this as a "pick me up" after being kicked around by the .45 toters.
    Stay safe out there!

  12. #26
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    Good Story Hot Guns...

    Our Sheriff's Dept., State Patrol, City Cops all use .40 caliber. For us and the troopers, Glocks.

    The guys at APT Academy ( http://www.aptacademy.com/ ) where our guys have trained in the past all prefer 9mm. Especially in select fire subguns for controlability and the light recoil. They stress that even fractions of a second saved in recoil recovery equates to fractions of a second sooner the next round heads down range.

    I never said anything about caliber difference but some students and LEO inevitably trash talked the 9mm round to the instructors offering their tidbits about caliber.

    All B.J. would say is... "You wanna trot on down range there and let me shoot you with my 9mm?" He claims, he's never had any takers on his offer.

    He just says, "Keep shooting until the threat is neutralized!" Duh....

    My very first gun was a S&W 459 9mm 25 + years ago... After that, for the next 25 years I was pretty much a big bore guy owning several .45's, .357 and .40 cals with the exception of a Walther PPK/S.

    Couple of months ago just bought another 9mm. I got the XD9sc for the controllability and light recoil. Not because I can't handle a G-27 or other subcompact .40 but just because I like the lighter recoil and quicker follow-up of the 9mm in a subcompact.

    I have no problem trusting my life to it and with good HP ammo (Speer 124 gr. +P Gold Dots or Hornady TAP 124 gr. Personal Defense) I don't lose any sleep over it. It's mostly my BUG, but I have carried it as Primary a few times too.

    I'm one who essentially believes that when you get right down to it... when it comes to use of a "handgun" as a manstopper... you're kind of splittin hairs with the 9mm vs. .40 vs .45! All have failed to stop with a few rounds, and all have stopped people with just a few rounds.

    Mark Yuhr in Miami Fl, a couple of decades ago shot and hit a robber 8 times at point blank range with .45 acp hollow points and the guy still tried to raise and fire his gun at Mark before finally collapsing. Good thing he had a stolen gun and safety was on or Mark may have got shot before he was able to get to his BUG... a 5 shot snubby which he grabbed and pointed, but didn't have to fire it.

    Bottom line, keep shooting until the threat is over!

    Thanks for the post HotGuns!
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  13. #27
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    Wink Dang right he was charged...I'll bet.

    Quote Originally Posted by kavity View Post
    Did the 21 year old get charged with anything? Sounds like a case of self defense...even though he was a felon.
    Speaking as a former Parole Officer myself, I can be fairly certain that yes indeed he was charged. First they violated his parole and sent him back inside on the remainder of the original sentence then I'll bet the grand jury returned a formal indictment for at least manslaughter. That's how it would go in Miami.

    I used to ride with the cops down here all the time. I couldn't be armed because THEY had to enforce my dept policy even though my own bosses let me carry a 1911 on the job 'cuz I had some real bad boys. They created my caseload from the most feared of all the female officers lists when I joined my unit. They took one look at my degree and my background as an infantry captain and said: "WOO HOO! ALRIGHT, everybody in the office make a list of the top ten guys you think are the most likely to smack you silly and we'll give 'em to the newbie"....Thanks a lot I say.

    Back then most parole officers were female and came from a background of social work. They were reluctant to help the cops clear cases by searching the domiciles of their offenders...since it was allowable by law and there was no warrant requirement. See, you sign that away when you accept parole voluntarily.

    One time I had a guy the locals just knew was dealing coke, but they just couldn't get enough pc to make a warrant happen. So one of my buddies comes to me and says can I help since he was one of mine. So I went with them to the guys house and the cops never crossed the threshold they just blocked the door. He was sitting in a "LAZY BOY" (how appropriate) recliner and acted as if he hadn't a care in the world. as I searched. But I started to notice something. While I was across the room he was cool. But as I approached where he was sitting he got more agitated. I motioned the cops inside as I had him stand up and checked inside his chair where I found nearly a pound in brick form of...guess what? It was like a game of HOT/COLD....Oh man you're cold ICE COLD! Wait getting warmer... warmer... He was cooling his heels in the country lockup that evening. But one stop on the long road back to Raiford Prison. Those cops invited me to "Choir Practice" that night. How many cops here have ever attended a "choir practice?"
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array .45acp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    This thread is about the 9MM round as used for defensive purposes but this one is a bit different. Its not about "bashing" the 9 as a "wimp" round, or even about how (as the saying goes) it's "only carried by woman and sissies", this is about the actual,real effectiveness in one case that I was involved in not too long ago.

    Here is the condensed version of the story. For those that dont already know...I am a part time Sheriffs Deputy in a county that has 80% of its population in the lower part of the county in one city...which makes it pretty danged rural everywhere else.

    We were out in the county rounding up High Risk Parole Violators, these were the guys and gals that had been jailed for violent crimes of some sort or had resisted arrest and were considered a flight risk or suspected of carrying weapons on them at all times.

    We had gone out in teams of 3 units each,mostly County units with some City units there, and I had the lead Parole Officer riding with me. Its not often that we do this, maybe twice a year when the Parole Officers feel like it needs to be done. They were wearing vests and were armed with the dept. issued Glock .40's We included a city unit with each team as there were some warrants in the city, and the city generally dosent serve warrants. Since we dont do much in the city, we figured at least they would know the addresses.

    We had actually had a pretty fruitful night thus far, we had rounded up about around a dozen violators, busted two operating meth labs that we turned over to the Drug Task force and recovered several guns, two of them being worn by the people we arrested and even got a few bags of pot that had been laying around.

    We had one address left before we were going to call it a night. As we rolled up to it, it was evident that no one was there. It was an empty trailer that hadn't been lived in for some time. As we sitting in the drive way we received a call that there were "shots fired" and as luck would have it it was at a residence less than a mile from us.

    When doing any kind of special detail, standard procedure is to not respond to any calls unless an emergency is taking place. So we just sat there an listened to the call and talked about where exactly it was. We knew that the available county units were already tied up a motor vehicle accident that had blocked the road. It involved injury and the had called for a medivac. The 3 units that were on patrol had responded and would be tied up for awhile and this accident was 28 miles away, and easy 40-45 minute ride from us. The 3 other teams of 3 cars each were all up in the northern end of the county...anywhere from 20 minutes away to over an hour away.

    The second call came out..."shots fired, man down ,all units respond"

    To be honest, I was worried about my Parole Officer more than anything.I didn't want to endanger her or the two others with us, both of them being rookies of less than 8 months on the job, it was in fact their first time ever riding with the Police.

    As we discussed going or not going, the third call came out...ANY unit in the area please respond shots fired. I motioned with my left hand and off we went. Two county units and a City unit with lights and sirens running down the road like scalded dogs.

    One the short two minute ride there, I told the Parole Officer to stay in the car as we didn't know what to expect. She got on her cell and told the other two. I could tell that she was exited.

    As we arrived I hit the spotlight on the activity that we could see. Two young males standing in the yard looking like deer in the headlights. We put them on the ground at gunpoint and arrested them. It was then that I noticed a man in his 50's laying on the ground right in front of a trailer. I could hear motion in the trailer, so I cleared it and removed a very pregnant women.

    One of the part time officers is a Fireman that is a paramedic. Calling him over to me, we assessed the man on the ground. Unfortunately for him it was too late. As I looked at him with my flashlight, his eyes opened and closed and he took his last breath. His eyes opened again and started glazing over.

    That man was cut up. There were so many entry and exit wounds that we couldn't really tell what was what. He had a large flash burn on his forearm where witnesses say he tried to grab the gun.
    According to various witnesses, the man and his ex wife had got in an altercation when her boyfriend arrived and aggravated things even more. Both men got into a fight, the younger one being pretty handily thrashed by the older one which then turned on his ex wife and started beating her.

    The younger man went to his Dads house close by to retrieve a Hi-Point 9MM. Yeah I know that they are junk, but it got the job done.

    He walked up to the older man still beating his ex wife and shot him numerous times from spittin distance. The wife was distraught and actually thought she was the one being shot at and she complained of her ears ringing. The older fellow staggered around a bit and collapsed...thus ending his 15 year record of domestic violence.

    The shooter was 21 years old and already a felon, spending his 18th,19th and 20th year in jail...where he was let out for "good behavior".

    The shooter admitted at the scene that he did the dirty deed and showed little remorse. He told us that he "finished" what the cops couldn't. He also said that it was the first time he had ever actually shot a gun...in fact he had trouble loading it...but he figured it out.

    So we got the shooter and the gun at the scene which was laying on the hood of a vehicle with an empty mag and the slide locked back....something that is almost unheard of nowadays. Usually both are long gone by the time we get there. We secured the scene,called the Coroner and turned it over to the investigators.

    As it turns out the man was shot 5 times. Each shot exited. For you hunters out there that has seen what happens when a bullet hits a rib and exits, imagine that happening 5 times. I have a new respect for the 9mm. Although I've attended numerous shooting, this was actually the first time that I was the responding officer and got to see things up close. For those that are wondering, the bullets were just standard run of the mill Winchester HP...no fancy names or anything...in fact, its probably the cheapest HP they make that they sell at Walmart.

    We all talk about the "one shot stopping power" of this and that but in reality I dont think that it really matters much because in the heat of the moment, almost no one shoots just once.

    Thats pretty much the end of the story. Two people here have removed from society, both known to the local law enforcement. The shooter, being a felon in possesion of a weapon, and being on parole will be out of circulation for quite some time. The Parole Officers got an education in the use of deadly force and what it actually looks like.

    To add a twist to the story, the SHOOTER happened to be one that we had visitied earlier that night that was not home. He had not abided by the conditons of his parole and had served time for felonious assualt.

    Is it a small world or what ?

    Yeah.., the 9MM works. With HP ammuniton, it does the job and it makes a real mess of things.
    I beg to differ on the Hi-Point being junk. I have numerous guns inc 1911's and a Hi-Point and I state that it is not junk. Inexpensive yes, junk no.
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  15. #29
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    Wink Hi-Point seems to be a work in progress...

    Quote Originally Posted by .45acp View Post
    I beg to differ on the Hi-Point being junk. I have numerous guns inc 1911's and a Hi-Point and I state that it is not junk. Inexpensive yes, junk no.
    IIRC, Hi-Point is the evolution of several gun companies. I'm pretty sure Hi-Point used to be Stallard Arms and they were a true POS then. Before it was Stallard it was something else. I have read a few decent reviews of the Hi-Point. Of course the antis love to single them out because Hi-Point 9mm carbines were used by the Columbine Killers, IIRC. I personally would never own one. I've handled them at gunshows and they well...they FEEL LIKE...a piece of junk which I know, is something quite ineffable stretching into the realm of ergonomics. Each to his own.

    I'm only recently getting over my bias against AK47's on the sole basis that they were WARSAW PACT weapons. Producers of the AK were training to kill me and were actually used to kill some of my friends in various locations hither and yon across the globe and in the distant past. But I have to grudgingly admit it is a superb weapon. Built to be used by unskilled troops and washed in a jungle stream during a lull in battle. My friends in SOCOM often praised it and showed me how to employ and field strip it while I was on active duty. I kinda wished I'd gotten one while 7.62x39 was still available and cheap. Now it almost doesn't make any sense.
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  16. #30
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    The nastiest GSW (what we call gun shots in the ER) I ever saw was from a 22lr. Young kid in his twenties shot 3 times at an angle in his mouth. Turned his brains into scrambled eggs and blood was everywhere. I threw a pair of shoes away after that one. He still had a mostly functioning brain stem so he was still "alive" when we got him. He lived two days before the family decided to pull him off life support.

    Two punks killed him over a girl. One was the girls ex-bf, and was broken up with this girl for like 6 months, but he was still stalking her. The poor kid didn't even know the guy, or even really know the story about the two. He was a year from his degree, and was going to be a teacher, that's what the family told me. The shooter ended up killing himself a couple days later while running from the police and the accesory got like 5-10 years. I can still see the kids face and everytime I think about it, I really pray there is a Heaven and a Hell. It really was a wake-up call for me. It was about two months after I graduated, before then all I saw was couple through and through flesh wounds.

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