9mm...actual use

This is a discussion on 9mm...actual use within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This thread is about the 9MM round as used for defensive purposes but this one is a bit different. Its not about "bashing" the 9 ...

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Thread: 9mm...actual use

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    9mm...actual use

    This thread is about the 9MM round as used for defensive purposes but this one is a bit different. Its not about "bashing" the 9 as a "wimp" round, or even about how (as the saying goes) it's "only carried by woman and sissies", this is about the actual,real effectiveness in one case that I was involved in not too long ago.

    Here is the condensed version of the story. For those that dont already know...I am a part time Sheriffs Deputy in a county that has 80% of its population in the lower part of the county in one city...which makes it pretty danged rural everywhere else.

    We were out in the county rounding up High Risk Parole Violators, these were the guys and gals that had been jailed for violent crimes of some sort or had resisted arrest and were considered a flight risk or suspected of carrying weapons on them at all times.

    We had gone out in teams of 3 units each,mostly County units with some City units there, and I had the lead Parole Officer riding with me. Its not often that we do this, maybe twice a year when the Parole Officers feel like it needs to be done. They were wearing vests and were armed with the dept. issued Glock .40's We included a city unit with each team as there were some warrants in the city, and the city generally dosent serve warrants. Since we dont do much in the city, we figured at least they would know the addresses.

    We had actually had a pretty fruitful night thus far, we had rounded up about around a dozen violators, busted two operating meth labs that we turned over to the Drug Task force and recovered several guns, two of them being worn by the people we arrested and even got a few bags of pot that had been laying around.

    We had one address left before we were going to call it a night. As we rolled up to it, it was evident that no one was there. It was an empty trailer that hadn't been lived in for some time. As we sitting in the drive way we received a call that there were "shots fired" and as luck would have it it was at a residence less than a mile from us.

    When doing any kind of special detail, standard procedure is to not respond to any calls unless an emergency is taking place. So we just sat there an listened to the call and talked about where exactly it was. We knew that the available county units were already tied up a motor vehicle accident that had blocked the road. It involved injury and the had called for a medivac. The 3 units that were on patrol had responded and would be tied up for awhile and this accident was 28 miles away, and easy 40-45 minute ride from us. The 3 other teams of 3 cars each were all up in the northern end of the county...anywhere from 20 minutes away to over an hour away.

    The second call came out..."shots fired, man down ,all units respond"

    To be honest, I was worried about my Parole Officer more than anything.I didn't want to endanger her or the two others with us, both of them being rookies of less than 8 months on the job, it was in fact their first time ever riding with the Police.

    As we discussed going or not going, the third call came out...ANY unit in the area please respond shots fired. I motioned with my left hand and off we went. Two county units and a City unit with lights and sirens running down the road like scalded dogs.

    One the short two minute ride there, I told the Parole Officer to stay in the car as we didn't know what to expect. She got on her cell and told the other two. I could tell that she was exited.

    As we arrived I hit the spotlight on the activity that we could see. Two young males standing in the yard looking like deer in the headlights. We put them on the ground at gunpoint and arrested them. It was then that I noticed a man in his 50's laying on the ground right in front of a trailer. I could hear motion in the trailer, so I cleared it and removed a very pregnant women.

    One of the part time officers is a Fireman that is a paramedic. Calling him over to me, we assessed the man on the ground. Unfortunately for him it was too late. As I looked at him with my flashlight, his eyes opened and closed and he took his last breath. His eyes opened again and started glazing over.

    That man was cut up. There were so many entry and exit wounds that we couldn't really tell what was what. He had a large flash burn on his forearm where witnesses say he tried to grab the gun.
    According to various witnesses, the man and his ex wife had got in an altercation when her boyfriend arrived and aggravated things even more. Both men got into a fight, the younger one being pretty handily thrashed by the older one which then turned on his ex wife and started beating her.

    The younger man went to his Dads house close by to retrieve a Hi-Point 9MM. Yeah I know that they are junk, but it got the job done.

    He walked up to the older man still beating his ex wife and shot him numerous times from spittin distance. The wife was distraught and actually thought she was the one being shot at and she complained of her ears ringing. The older fellow staggered around a bit and collapsed...thus ending his 15 year record of domestic violence.

    The shooter was 21 years old and already a felon, spending his 18th,19th and 20th year in jail...where he was let out for "good behavior".

    The shooter admitted at the scene that he did the dirty deed and showed little remorse. He told us that he "finished" what the cops couldn't. He also said that it was the first time he had ever actually shot a gun...in fact he had trouble loading it...but he figured it out.

    So we got the shooter and the gun at the scene which was laying on the hood of a vehicle with an empty mag and the slide locked back....something that is almost unheard of nowadays. Usually both are long gone by the time we get there. We secured the scene,called the Coroner and turned it over to the investigators.

    As it turns out the man was shot 5 times. Each shot exited. For you hunters out there that has seen what happens when a bullet hits a rib and exits, imagine that happening 5 times. I have a new respect for the 9mm. Although I've attended numerous shooting, this was actually the first time that I was the responding officer and got to see things up close. For those that are wondering, the bullets were just standard run of the mill Winchester HP...no fancy names or anything...in fact, its probably the cheapest HP they make that they sell at Walmart.

    We all talk about the "one shot stopping power" of this and that but in reality I dont think that it really matters much because in the heat of the moment, almost no one shoots just once.

    Thats pretty much the end of the story. Two people here have removed from society, both known to the local law enforcement. The shooter, being a felon in possesion of a weapon, and being on parole will be out of circulation for quite some time. The Parole Officers got an education in the use of deadly force and what it actually looks like.

    To add a twist to the story, the SHOOTER happened to be one that we had visitied earlier that night that was not home. He had not abided by the conditons of his parole and had served time for felonious assualt.

    Is it a small world or what ?

    Yeah.., the 9MM works. With HP ammuniton, it does the job and it makes a real mess of things.
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    Thanks for the story, HotGuns. It sounds like you had an interesting night!
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Did the 21 year old get charged with anything? Sounds like a case of self defense...even though he was a felon.

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    Ya just got to love consistent repeat customers lol .
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    I am interested to hear that and thx for the detailed telling.

    I am not one to bash the 'humble'' 9mm .... it's what I carry. I know of another incident where I got a first hand report of similar 9mm injuries ... holes were plenty big enough and damage was too.

    It's simple really - we each carry what we choose to - I am happy with that, just as long as folks carry when they can.
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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    The shooter was in fact charged with murder.

    Several things will go against him.

    One, he was in no immediate danger. He left the scene and returned. While it could be argued that he returned to protect his girlfriend, that'll be a hard sell to the prosecuter who is actually pretty level headed and down to earth about such things.

    He was a parole violator. That means that he has an outstanding warrant against him meaning that any cop could arrest him on sight and put him in jail.

    Another is felon in possesion of a handgun.

    He admitted that he shot the dude...which will be admissable in court because we read him his rights immediately. He made several statements that will not go his way.

    I dont think he'll get out of this...but stranger things have happened.

    Had he remained in jail to serve out his term rather than being paroled, a person would still be alive today...even though that person was was a scuzball.

    Thats the "justice" system for you.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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    Thanks, HotGuns, for this enlightening story. The information you provided makes me breathe a little easier while carrying my PM9 or any of my other 9mms exclusively, when I simply cannot carry my XD40.

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    Good story. Thanks for all the details. I also carry a 9mm, glad to red a first person account.
    Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft!

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    The 5 in, 5 out is what bothers me about the 9mm the most. I realize that there are some magnificent platforms out there, and that the 9mm is nearly as old as the .45ACP, but the high-speed combined with the low weight just seems creepy to me.
    "A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in ... And how many want out." British Prime Minister Tony Blair

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    Great story, and interesting fill in on the shooter. Thanks.
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

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    Quote Originally Posted by purple88yj View Post
    The 5 in, 5 out is what bothers me about the 9mm the most. I realize that there are some magnificent platforms out there, and that the 9mm is nearly as old as the .45ACP, but the high-speed combined with the low weight just seems creepy to me.
    I understand the over-penetration issue in theory, but has there just aren't that many cases (that I can find, anyway) of any pistol round penetrating a BG and hitting a GG (Live Free or Die Hard doesn't count!). Does anyone have any links to cases like this? They'd be much appreciated....

    That being said, two holes are generally better then one...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Yeah.., the 9MM works. With HP ammuniton, it does the job and it makes a real mess of things.
    Nice write-up on the night's challenges. Glad you're okay. Thank you for doing a very dangerous job! It's much appreciated.

    Before opting to go 9mm semi-auto all around (and ditching the ol' revolver I'd had for 10yrs), I headed to the country for some old fashioned, proving grounds-style examination of what a good, high-powered 9mm round could do. Hung up a side of beef, a country ham and a couple other interesting items. Needless to say, at most distances the damage was significant and would not be survivable in an attacker (if struck the same way).

    The proof is in the "pudding," as they say ... and it was during that testing day. Each situation is different, and there are no guarantees in this, as with everything in life. But: 9mm for me. Current rig is a CZ P01 9mm semi-auto, running DoubleTap JHP 124gr +P.
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    It's also interesting to note that these rounds were some of the cheaper defensive rounds. Not +P, not known for excellent expansion. And yet, they did a heck of a job on the "affected individual". I imagine that a much better and more well-regarded round would have less chance of overpenetration.

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    Thanks for that interesting story. I carry a Glock 19, and I feel very confident in my ability to stop an attacker with it.
    USMC rule # 23 of gunfighting: Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

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    Hey, I'm not volunteering to get shot with any 9's.....
    "...bad decisions that turn out well often make heroes."


    Gary D. Mitchell, A Sniper's Journey: The Truth About the Man and the Rifle, P. 103, NAL Caliber books, 2006, 1st Ed.

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