Effective ammunition for *minimal* penetration?
This is a discussion on Effective ammunition for *minimal* penetration? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ok, normally I'm not overly concerned about over-penetration, but recently I've been riding a commuter train a fair amount and the people density is quite ...
August 18th, 2007 11:31 AM
Effective ammunition for *minimal* penetration?
Ok, normally I'm not overly concerned about over-penetration, but recently I've been riding a commuter train a fair amount and the people density is quite high. In this situation, it seems like it would be difficult to avoid having someone behind a BG.
I'm wondering if there is any ammunition out there that is effective, but unlikely to go all the way through a BG.
Specifics are 9mm in a 3 - 3.5" barrel, semi-auto.
I know about the Glasers, but doesn't seem like an overly effective round.
Your thoughts are appreciated.
August 18th, 2007 12:03 PM
I think it's an oxymoron: minimal penetration, yet effective.
The bullet must cause enough damage (size/expansion), be placed well enough and be of sufficient penetration to reach those vital structures. Can't be shattering the pelvis, if you've got an underpowered round; and you can't be taking out the liver or heart, if you can't penetrate more than 5".
Going for minimal penetration is trading off effectiveness, IMO. Caution is due. I would suggest reviewing the FBI and other studies regarding wound ballistics, penetration, etc. Generally speaking, 12-14" penetration seems to be the acceptable range for law enforcement, IIRC, though some of our LEO's can probably corroborate or refute that, given their experience. Decide, then, what your comfort level is, based on standardized studies of the performance of various rounds in various guns.
For me: 12-14" penetration is a minimum, given the realities of winter clothing and larger, corn-fed (and meth-fed) attackers these days. I'm all for considering background risks of slight overpenetration, but not if it goes so far as to altering the outcome and getting me or my family killed. YMMV, of course.
That said, I also occasionally ride the light-rail train. Often, it's fairly packed with people. That is a risk. What I do is to await the car that has elevated seating at both ends, and pick one of those seats nearest to the end. It's easily defended; it ensures a relatively high line of fire toward any BG; it reduces the risk to other passengers. I opted to alter seating selection, instead of reducing the effectiveness of my ammo. Can mean that I spend longer waiting for just such an available seat/car to come along, but it is a better solution for me.
BTW: CZ P01 9mm w/ 3.9" bbl; KelTec P3AT .380.
August 18th, 2007 12:10 PM
You can use bullets designed to fragment upon entry such as the Glaser "Saftey Slug". There are a host of others out there.
ccw9mm covered it.
The bullets desigend to break apart do lack penetration in actual shootings. I think it would be a serious thing...escpecially if you just shoot once. To overcome any shortcomings, I think you should just keep shooting.
I dont care who you are, a magazine full of anything getting inserted into your body at high speed will do the job.
Its definatley a compromise...but if you find yourself in close proximatey to crowds alot, it might be somthing that you need to look at. Shooting a bad guy to save yourself and killing an innocent behind them dosent seem to accomplish much.
Heres a good article on several of the prefragmented bullets and worth a read...
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August 18th, 2007 12:26 PM
Its good you are concerned . My honest recommendation is any quality hp ammo, since about all are structured to meet fbi standards . Dont think for a minute that the fbi overlooked the penetration in a crowd issue . If a modern HP exits a torso hit on the primary VCA the velocity is so reduced and the surface area so large that a life threatening injury on " the infamous buss load of nuns and orphans " behind them is not really an issue . They may get hit , they may get hurt , but its like the old " kid your gonna shoot your eye out bb gun argument " Put the VCA down others have a small chance of being hurt, and less of being hurt to the point their life is threatened with exiting rounds .
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August 18th, 2007 02:18 PM
One thing to add. In gelatin tests on 9mm JHPs, the 124 grain rounds tended to overpenetrate more than the 147s when going through 4 layers of denim first. The theory being that the smaller expansion cavity got filled easily on the small rounds, turning them into ball ammo. The heavier rounds still had enough cavity to facilitate expansion, and thus, less penetration.
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August 18th, 2007 02:49 PM
I just read an intersting article wriiten by the FBI about the devolopment of the 10mm, and it brings up a interesting point about "over-penetration". Pretty much it said that the FBI coud care less about overpenetration b/c only 20-30% of shots fired hit the intended target on average. And also if the bullet does penetrate the target, it loses so much of its ballistic energy, that it has a very low chance of being lethal to something behind it. No one (in every shooting case the FBI studied), has ever been killed by a bullet that went through the target and into someone else (we are talking handguns here, not rifles). Unless my EDC was a 30-06, I really don't worry about over-penetration, I worry more about putting the bullets on their mark. Carry some HST's and don't give it a second thought.
August 18th, 2007 11:17 PM
I'd be more worried about the shots that miss more than a round that goes through.
August 18th, 2007 11:43 PM
But then, FBI and "authorities" in general have a shield the average citizen doesn't have. It is very much a concern when rampant lawsuits are a surety, following a situation where "too much" force is used.
Originally Posted by Schwebel
August 18th, 2007 11:59 PM
My impression is that law enforcement agencies are far more lawsuit averse than the average citizen with a CCW. For one thing, they have deeper pockets, so it's more likely they'll be sued. For another, it's usually not the person making the policy who's going to be putting their life on the line, whereas each and every one of us makes decisions for ourself.
Originally Posted by ccw9mm
August 19th, 2007 12:01 AM
Check this out: known as "The Judge" by Taurus. It's a .45/410. If you are worried about over-penetration, a 410 shotshell into a target at close range might just be the ticket.
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August 19th, 2007 01:51 AM
I would take a close look at the 90 grain Corbon load. It goes about 1500fps and in the one shooting I'm aware of, the guy dropped. It caused a wide but shallow wound and fragmented from what I understand.
August 19th, 2007 02:37 AM
Originally Posted by jualdeaux
I like what Stephen A Camp had to say about overpenetration in this article: http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/H...No%20Faith.htm
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