5x.36>1x.45? (aka 000 Buck in a Judge)

5x.36>1x.45? (aka 000 Buck in a Judge)

This is a discussion on 5x.36>1x.45? (aka 000 Buck in a Judge) within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have seen several threads about the Taurus Judge (which appears to be gaining a small following) and a couple threads about other 45/410 chambered ...

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Thread: 5x.36>1x.45? (aka 000 Buck in a Judge)

  1. #1
    Member Array mousehunter's Avatar
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    5x.36>1x.45? (aka 000 Buck in a Judge)

    I have seen several threads about the Taurus Judge (which appears to be gaining a small following) and a couple threads about other 45/410 chambered handguns. I was wondering if anybody has ever chronographed the buck shoot loads. I assume part of the allure of the 45/410 chambering is the thought that 5x.36>1x.45 (at least that is my knee jerk reaction - and it has a almost gotten me to get one of these). But without fps, it is hard to tell if the equation continues to hold true.


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    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Send it to me

    If anyone wants the chrono numbers just send me your Taurus Judge, and I will be happy to chrono it for you. I will even buy the ammo after you send the gun.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    With the short barrel, and anemic .410, its a very close range weapon. You'll tear the ever-loving crap out of something within 10 yards. The .45 LC will have a tad more "oomph!", but again, its extremely relative,and I doubt of real-world significance. The real question is whether you want multiple lead projectiles, or a HP.

    Let me add, with the LC loads, the judge is much like a Seecamp on steroids- there isn't enough barrel to give real ballistic stability. Accuracy past 25 yards will be better than with the .410, I'm sure, but again, this pistol is a bevy of compromises. If you want a modern "Coach-gun", I'd say this is it.

  4. #4
    Member Array mousehunter's Avatar
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    A 45lc with HP might not have enough velocity to get reliable expansion on some of the 45/410 guns (especially the derringers). Then the question goes to weather or not the 410 will have enough velocity to get reliable penetration. Would love to see some ballistic gelatin tests of the Judge and of the Bond or American Derringer 45/410's.

    If I get one, I guess I will need to do the water jugs of truth on it.

    In theory I could test it this weekend. I have a 45/410 piece of scrap metal - but after it cut through my glove (5 years - scar is still slightly visible) I swore I would never fire it again.

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Some also load it with shot for the first round...I've thought about this for a bedside gun. 3am, dead asleep, noises, groggy, eyesight/aim not so good right now... So far I've stuck with 10 consistent rounds rather than 5 mixed up rounds.
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  6. #6
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    I've been thinking about the "Judge".

    I've seen videos of the .410 shot shells being fired from a car window into a silhouette and it looks wicked...the shot pattern being about the same size as a head. This was done with the intent of using it on carjackers.

    Im wondering though...although Im certain that it would be very painful and more than likey blind the carjacker, Im not certain that it would KILL him. It would seem to me that if you shot someone in the face and blinded them that it would be a lawsuit waiting to happen if the perp survived.

    Yes I know that it sounds ridiculous, but some lawyer, somewhere, Im sure would be willing to make an issue of it.

    Its just a thought. Does anyone else see the potential here ?
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    Hotguns,

    I agree I wouldn't use bird shot. I would go for 000 buck
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  8. #8
    Member Array mousehunter's Avatar
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    Another thought I had (when starting this post) was if any other 410 load might be more effective than buck. In particular was wondering if any special slugs (heavier/fragmentable), multi slug, or linked buck have been made specifically for self defense out of a pistol.

    On the other hand, just using buck for self defense risks the wrath of the DA, the others would almost certainly go to trial.

  9. #9
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    http://gunsandammomag.com
    Go to the Dan Johnson blog and scroll down to the judge blog.
    Best I've seen and sums up everything posted here.

  10. #10
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    I would stick with buckshot for that gun...my thinking is as follows. The slug loads in .410 I have seen all look pretty meek (some around 100gr, barely bigger than the average .380acp bullet) and velocity out of a short barrel is going to be much hampered in comparison to a .410 long gun. So, if you want a solid projectile the .45LC would probably be a much better choice. But having said that, for a gun that size and that weight, I think you could get a revolver in .44 Mag that is much more powerful and much less unwieldy. There are just better cartridges for a .44/.45 revolver than the LC in general, and even with the .45 LC as a given, the gun is built big to handle the .410 shell, and if you're not shooting .410s you might as well just get a revolver with a shorter cylinder.

    Birdshot seems like a bad idea for self defense and an even worse one out of a handgun, unless you're killing snakes. Seems like it would make a nasty wound, but I'd be concerned it would not sufficiently stop some attacks.

    If you can pack five .36 cal balls in a .410 shell, and it chronographs with semi-decent muzzle velocity, that'd be my choice. Honestly though I'd prefer a standard revolver or pistol for carrying in public places (like when out driving). A shotgun is my choice for home defence, when I'm unlikely to have lots of bystanders to worry about, but I'd want to have the option in public to know exactly where each projectile is going (where the gun is aimed!). The idea that the rifling actually works to scatter the shot further is slightly spooky to me. Yeah it might pepper the carjacker, but I wouldn't want a "flyer" hitting someone in another car, so to speak. But I haven't seen what the spread patterns look like at close range with buckshot...I'd be interested if someone tests it!
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  11. #11
    Member Array ttpete's Avatar
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    How about using brass .410 cases and stacking .45 cal. round balls in it? or putting a card wad over the powder and loading with a stack of washers? All kinds of possibilities here.
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  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    I figure the first shot being #4 or #6 would be more for a distraction and delay tactic to buy you time to get a proper center of mass shot with the .45.
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    There are several threads about the Judge that contain some info about patterns, etc. This is one that I started right after I got mine.

    I have also posted in several of the other threads. These can be found by using the search function.
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  14. #14
    Member Array mousehunter's Avatar
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    Stacking .45 ball in a brass case might cause some interesting pressure spikes as they hit the rifling - but was thinking about the same with either stacking .44 (.429) ball or semi wad-cutters.
    ---
    thanks for the link to your testing - if you penetrated a bucket, I can save my hand the expense of doing a milk jug test.
    ---
    Found some published chrono tests in a recent magazine - 3 shot 000 was slightly under 800fps. Not much kinetic energy, but appears to be enough to be effective at close range.
    Last edited by mousehunter; September 29th, 2007 at 04:19 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mousehunter View Post
    Found some published chrono tests in a recent magazine - 3 shot 000 was slightly under 800fps. Not much kinetic energy, but appears to be enough to be effective at close range.
    I look at it as a home protection firearm. Across any room in my house would be no more than 20 feet. 3 .36 balls at 700 to 800 fps at 20 feet or less will get someones attention and hold it for a while. It won't over penetrate either. If my wife uses 3 000 rounds and someone is still kicking the .45 Colt 200 gr. JHP will settle them down nicely.
    George

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