November 4th, 2007 04:52 PM
9mm ammo - Is +P or +P+ worth the trouble?
Somebody posted a link to a very interesting ballistic data source from the Winchester website:
Winchester ballistic test comparison tool
And I have been looking at it to compare the results of gel testing with Winchesters "T" series 9mm ammo in regular, +P and +P+ loadings. The table shows Winchester's test data on expansion and penetration for the three products.
I can't see much difference, and it makes me wonder if +P and +P+ really offer any advantages over regular pressure ammo. Here is the data (expansion size and retained weight are virtually the same in all cases, so I haven't shown that here):
Regular pressure 147 grain - velocity 990 fps, penetration bare gelatin 13.9 inches, penetration 4 layers denim 14.5 inches.
+P 124 grain - velocity 1180 fps, penetration bare gelatin 12.2 inches, penetration 4 layers denim 13.9 inches.
+P+ 127 grain - velocity 1250 fps, penetration bare gelatin 12.3 inches, penetration 4 layers denim 12.2 inches.
Looking at this, the 147 grain regular pressure ammo penetrates more than the higher pressure products. So why beat up your gun with the high pressure stuff?
November 4th, 2007 05:12 PM
I dont know why people get so caught up with the +p thing. It just isnt worth it to me.
November 4th, 2007 05:35 PM
Speer gold dot 147 grain standard pressure will do quite well. I'm not saying the +p stuff is bad, (unless the recoil increases your between-shot recovery time) but I don't see a real need for it either.
November 4th, 2007 05:37 PM
I am not over impressed with +P but - can use it in my SIG and do, for carry.
The reason is less any expected super-stellar bullet performance as the fact that when I had some problems a ways back with my then grease lube gumming up (now use oil on my ST) - it was the +P that kept the gun cycling, while std pressure was misfeeding.
So - for me it is an edge on reliability, in case the gun should be at all compromized for function in a similar way. Unlikely now but I am convinced the +P does have that small advantage for the gun.
Chris - P95
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November 4th, 2007 06:02 PM
no its not worth it .. basically it increases wear for same about of action .. i could see using a +p in a short barreled gun as it gets you closer to what a fullsize gun speed and power will be beyond that why bother
November 4th, 2007 09:21 PM
Trouble? What trouble? Got to pick a bullet. Might as well pick one that works best in the gun and performs in basic tests. If that happens to be +P or +P+, then it's no extra effort to pick that one. Both require a trip to the gun shop, and plopping down the cash.
9mm ammo - Is +P or +P+ worth the trouble?
In my case, bar none, the two bullets that cycle best on the CZ P01 happen to be higher-pressure rounds from Federal and DoubleTap. In basic testing, these seem to expand more reliably, punch a bit deeper and cycle better. Can't imagine why I'd want to avoid the facts for perceived "trouble," over something I'm depending on for my life when the chips are down.
As far as "getting caught up" with something, it's a sign when many (most?) police and sheriff's agencies pick +P bullets. If it's a bad thing, then everyone's deluded in a way that has not been made clear.
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November 4th, 2007 10:27 PM
November 4th, 2007 10:50 PM
how much better it performs in ballistics gel may not be much (if any, depending on what manufacturer) compared to a heavier one, but I use it for other advantages
It is much more likely to cycle better.
While I was breaking in my gun, it had trouble feeding and extracting lower pressure rounds, but i knew very well that if I stuck a +P in there, it wouldnt have any problems. now of course its find with standard pressure rounds, but thats still a good reason to carry +P.
It also does help with us short barreled folk.
(i use gold dot +p short barrel to ensure the guy is going at a good speed)
as far as beating up my gun? I dont shoot my defensive ammo often. only enough to make sure its still doing well for me and to replace it. im not concerned about it doing any damage thats for sure. my gun can handle it just fine.
+P isnt for everyone. but it can be very useful
November 5th, 2007 01:05 AM
1943 - 2009
We'd have all been better off if this +P silliness hadn't started in the first place.
Originally Posted by SIXTO
See what you started, Lee Jurras?
When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
And go to your God like a soldier.
November 5th, 2007 01:15 AM
Looks like its worth it, if you subscribe to Evan Marshall's research..(I believe thats where this chart info comes from..)
Compare one shot stops to non-+P rounds..
November 5th, 2007 05:04 AM
Pogo, those numbers aren't comparing std pressure to +P and +P+, they're comparing different bullet weights and loads entirely. If you want a valid comparison of power factors you'll need to compare different powder charges using the same bullet.
Look for data that compares penetration and expansion between say, .124gr std. pressure, .124gr +P and 124gr. +P+ from the same manufacturer and the same ammo style (i.e. all Ranger Talons or all Hydra-shoks). Only then will you get an accurate idea of how different power levels perform.
November 5th, 2007 06:41 AM
They are worth the cost! - But only if your pistol/carbine can handle the load. They run VERY hot, and not all firearms respond well to them. I own a 9mm Desert Eagle, and before purchasing the +P, I did a little research. Found out that the +P in my barrel (the grooves in D Eagles are VERY different), would eat it up, and wouldn't be worth the extra velocity. This information was found on the Magnum Research website. I suggest you go to your firearm manufacturing website, or call the manufacturer.
The last thing you want is to get an ammo that will do harm to your firearm! All the +P, ++P, etc are most commonly used in calibers .40 and .45. Using this ammo in a .45 will damn near give you the velocity of a 9 with the power of the .45
November 5th, 2007 07:40 AM
I know the bullet weights varied
I said in my initial posting that the 9mm bullet weights in the Winchester table varied between 124 grains for the +P product to 147 grains for the +P+ product. But these are the only 3 products in the "T" series that Winchester tested, so it is the only comparison that can be made using this table.
Originally Posted by maclean3
As for comparing "different loads" - that is my entire point, to compare different loads producing different pressures and velocities.
Based on expansion and penetration, the Winchester standard pressure product shown performs better on bare and denim covered gel that the +P or +P+ products. That seemed significant to me, since the end result you want is expansion and penetration. What else is there, in a given diameter bullet of a given bullet design?
November 5th, 2007 09:48 AM
I only use +p in .38spl in my .357 snubbies
“You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”
― Robert A. Heinlein,
November 5th, 2007 10:06 AM
+P ammo to make the gun cycle?
I notice you list a Kimber Aegis 9mm as your carry gun. Perhaps it does take a +P 9mm round to make this gun cycle well - I'll take your word for it.
Originally Posted by friesepferd
My main 9mm guns are a Glock 19, a Sig P226 and a S&W 39, and they have cycled 100% through many thousands of standard pressure rounds over a number of years. I have to conclude that most 9mm guns are designed to cycle adequately with standard pressure 9mm ammo.
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