Heavier 9mm JHPs

This is a discussion on Heavier 9mm JHPs within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by GHFLRLTD I have been using 115 Grain Corbon B JHPs as my carry load. I am thinking about getting a bigger bullet. ...

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Thread: Heavier 9mm JHPs

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array Duisburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHFLRLTD View Post
    I have been using 115 Grain Corbon B JHPs as my carry load. I am thinking about getting a bigger bullet.

    Corbon B's only goes up to 125.

    Does anybody have any ideas on who has a round heavier than 125 in the JHP that would be an equivalent to the Corbon B?
    well whatever you do, be careful shooting higher power 9mm in the Beretta 92! The slide is known to crack and break apart
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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nativenyerintexas View Post
    I saw someone mention that the Winchester 147gr JHP in 9mm aren't too good for personal protection. Can someone tell me why? The way I figure it, my pistol, a Beretta Px4 Storm, has a 17 round capacity and I can pop off those 17 rounds fairly quickly. Even if they say they don't penetrate as well as a 124 gr bullet, won't the amount of ammo avaiable do the job? I'm just looking for constructive thoughts on this matter because I plan n getting my CHL in the next few months and want to get an ammo that will do OK if I ever need it. By the way, I live in an apartment community so there's the risk of ammo going through walls and traveling into my neighbor's apartment, and none of us want that, I'm sure.
    You're assuming that you'll get 17 hits before the BG gets in ONE that counts. You want a round that can do the job. First, you have to do your part, as shot placement trumps bigger/badder rounds. You also need a round that works flawlessly with your weapon: doesn't fail to fire, extract, eject, or feed. Can't say why winchester wouldn't be a good round, but don't plan throwing everything you have at him and hope that one round stops him. Throw one good, well placed round at him and hope that stops him. Then repeat 16 times rapidly, as necessary.
    Last edited by Cupcake; December 10th, 2007 at 01:47 PM.
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  4. #33
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Words-----what they may mean, is that the 147gr loads quite likely are not the best choice for a majority of CCW folks. Maybe I am also thinking of my own opinion on that subject too. See---the thing is---(and I have always thought) that one should practice with the same weight/cartridge that one intends on employing for self defense. 115gr loads are a bit less expensive, and quite possibly more readily available than the heavier loadings in the 9mm. Someone who practices with the 115 or 124gr loadings, but chooses the 147gr for the best option in a personal defense load would be fooling themselves. Recoil, and second shot follow-ups would be different. Since 9mm revolvers are few and far between---'limp-wristing' a semi automatic pistol can cause problems. I've never heard that a 147gr loading would not be a good choice. I figure the closer you get to the ballistics of the 45acp, the better statistics become. There's always the possibility of me figuring wrongly. If you are seriously worried about the possibility of penetrating neighbor's walls in an apartment complex, then you might look into frangible ammo for at 'home', and something else for carry. Play out possible scenarios in your apartment and place yourself in the scenarios where you'd never have to worry about shooting through someone else's wall. If you're going to worry about it when the time comes, you may hesitate long enough to cost your own life. Check ballistics on the different 9mm loads. I'd also check the fine print in your apartment lease, or the rules and regulations part. You are technically not the property owner. I would also keep any firearms discretely secure as many outsiders (contractors) have access to your abode. I didn't mean to write a novel, just covering most of what you have said in your post.

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeecup View Post
    JMHO, but those that use heavy bullets in the 9mm are defeating the very thing that could save their lives. VELOCITY!!!! If you want heavy--get at least a .40.
    I just can't agree. The only reason the lighter bullets were preferred before now is the older 147 gr bullets wouldn't expand at the lower velocities or plugged with clothing and wouldn't expand. Now its a different animal all together. There are 147gr options that are preforming as well as the lighter bullets do/did even through multiple layers of denim.

    One has to be aware of new things and be willing to accept change in traditional thought.
    Cell phones used to be in a bag and weigh nine pound......

    This as usual is JMHO...
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  6. #35
    Member Array nativenyerintexas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cupcake View Post
    You're assuming that you'll get 17 hits before the BG gets in ONE that counts. You want a round that can do the job. First, you have to do your part, as shot placement trumps bigger/badder rounds. You also need a round that works flawlessly with your weapon: doesn't fail to fire, extract, eject, or feed. Can't say why winchester wouldn't be a good round, but don't plan throwing everything you have at him and hope that one round stops him. Throw one good, well placed round at him and hope that stops him. Then repeat 16 times rapidly, as necessary.
    I might not be considered a marksman but I thik I'm good enough at the target range. I understand that when in a life-death struggle, your aim isn't as good as it is on the range in a controlled environment. That's one reason I'm trying to go to the range once a week to practice. I'd never blindly shoot and hope to hit my target. That's just as bad as not having anything to shoot at all, if not worse. I remember someone say "Aim big, hit big. Aim small, miss small.", so I get the idea of shot placement. That's the reason LEO aims for center mass and that's what I practice at the range when I go. I signed up for a beginner course when I frst got the gun two months ago but the range still as yet to make good with giving the lesson. I think I'll be able to learn something but it's getting to a point where I'll be beyond the lesson just by reading and hearing from people and then practicing those skills. I'm thinking about asking them to put the deposit from that class into a CHL class when I'm ready. Every brand and type of ammo I put through the Px4 has performed flawlessy.
    It is to be observed that Right of Self-Defence, arises directly and immediately from the Care of our own Preservation, which Nature recommends to every one. . . , and that this right is so primary, that it cannot be denied on the basis that it is not "expressly set forth.

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  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by nativenyerintexas View Post
    ... . I remember someone say "Aim big, hit big. Aim small, miss small.", so I get the idea of shot placement. That's the reason LEO aims for center mass and that's what I practice at the range when I go. ...
    Aim big - aim for the whole center mass / chest area.
    Aim small - aim for the 2nd button from the top of his shirt OR aim for the inner seam on his left shirt pocket.

    That is what I understand aim big / aim small to be. The 2nd button is still in the center mass, but the aiming point is much smaller.

    Center mass is the "boiler room". It contains the heart and lungs. Also, it is a bigger target then the triangle connecting the eyes and mouth on a head. So, aim small on a large effective target area. Missing small on that large effective target area, you could miss the button, but still be in the "boiler room". Aiming large at the whole center mass, you could miss the target, and then you would miss the whole effective target area (and the bullet goes whizzing by or hitting an arm/leg at best).

    Good luck with your PX4. I have one. It just isn't my cup of tea. Use whatever works for you. And good on you to get training.

  8. #37
    Member Array nativenyerintexas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    Words-----what they may mean, is that the 147gr loads quite likely are not the best choice for a majority of CCW folks. Maybe I am also thinking of my own opinion on that subject too. See---the thing is---(and I have always thought) that one should practice with the same weight/cartridge that one intends on employing for self defense. 115gr loads are a bit less expensive, and quite possibly more readily available than the heavier loadings in the 9mm. Someone who practices with the 115 or 124gr loadings, but chooses the 147gr for the best option in a personal defense load would be fooling themselves. Recoil, and second shot follow-ups would be different. Since 9mm revolvers are few and far between---'limp-wristing' a semi automatic pistol can cause problems. I've never heard that a 147gr loading would not be a good choice. I figure the closer you get to the ballistics of the 45acp, the better statistics become. There's always the possibility of me figuring wrongly. If you are seriously worried about the possibility of penetrating neighbor's walls in an apartment complex, then you might look into frangible ammo for at 'home', and something else for carry. Play out possible scenarios in your apartment and place yourself in the scenarios where you'd never have to worry about shooting through someone else's wall. If you're going to worry about it when the time comes, you may hesitate long enough to cost your own life. Check ballistics on the different 9mm loads. I'd also check the fine print in your apartment lease, or the rules and regulations part. You are technically not the property owner. I would also keep any firearms discretely secure as many outsiders (contractors) have access to your abode. I didn't mean to write a novel, just covering most of what you have said in your post.
    There is nothing in my lease that states I can't own a gun. Hee in Texas, it's a right that's not easlity circumvented. When I leave the apartment, I place the cable lock on the firearm and lock the gun in my fireproof safe along with a loaded magazine but the magazine is not loaded into the gun. Then of course, I lock the safe. My target ammo is still unlocked though but what's someone going to do with ammo and no gun? Not much. That's like having a gallon of gasoline and no car or lighter. Also, the apartment complex has been notified that they are not to enter my apartment without my permission or my presence. I understand they are still allowed to enter but only in certain circumstances. The apartment is small, only three rooms, so there's not much scenario differences available to me. I have three points of entry into the apartment, the front door, the patio door/window in the living room and the window in the bedroom. The front door entry would be the most likely and easiest but it's also the most dangerous because my neighbor's apartment is right across from my front door. The patio and bedroon window face another building, which is about 150 feet away and is faced with brick, as my building is also faced with brick but not on the side where the front door is.

    I've shot the Winchester 147 grain JHP ammo (50 rounds) and didn't feel any difference shooting that than I did shooting 115 gr FMJs. I saw the difference on paper but didn't notice any on my end of the gun. The difference on paper was more than likely to the decreased aerodynamics of the JHPs from what I'm told and is common to group about two to three inches wider thanwith 115 FMJs. I also shot the Gold Dot 147 JHPs and another brand JHP in 115 grain and all the JHPs I shot were somewhat consistent, no matter the weight. It might be more than just these factors though. I might have had a good day at the range using the 147s but a bad day when I used the 115 JHPs but who knows. It comes to a point where you're just mindf**king the whole thing. The shotshell ammo is too expenive for me to run regularly. I'm lucky I can afford 200 rounds of 9mm 115 FMJs a week, (I'm disabled and living on SSI) so that rules out shooting JHPs on a regular basis too.

    Thank you for the extensive email. Your thoughts are very much appreciated. You gave me some things to think about. This is the type of answer I wanted.
    It is to be observed that Right of Self-Defence, arises directly and immediately from the Care of our own Preservation, which Nature recommends to every one. . . , and that this right is so primary, that it cannot be denied on the basis that it is not "expressly set forth.

    --- Hugo Grotius

  9. #38
    Member Array nativenyerintexas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sojourner View Post
    Aim big - aim for the whole center mass / chest area.
    Aim small - aim for the 2nd button from the top of his shirt OR aim for the inner seam on his left shirt pocket.

    That is what I understand aim big / aim small to be. The 2nd button is still in the center mass, but the aiming point is much smaller.

    Center mass is the "boiler room". It contains the heart and lungs. Also, it is a bigger target then the triangle connecting the eyes and mouth on a head. So, aim small on a large effective target area. Missing small on that large effective target area, you could miss the button, but still be in the "boiler room".

    Good luck with your PX4. I have one. It just isn't my cup of tea. Use whatever works for you. And good on you to get training.
    I took the quote to mean aim at center mass as opposed to aim for the head, leg or arm. In the time when it counts, aim for the biggest target, even if you will only slow the attacker down, it beats missing the fatal, single shot to the head.

    What don't you like about the Px4. I haven't heard anyone say anything bad about it, except that it's a Beretta. For some reason Beretta doesn't have a great reutation around here in Texas. Everyone's a Glock fan. But that might be because of what I call the 'iPod Syndrome'. I've held them but didn't like the way they felt in my hand, like holding a plastic brick. The G17 I shot, shot nice though.
    It is to be observed that Right of Self-Defence, arises directly and immediately from the Care of our own Preservation, which Nature recommends to every one. . . , and that this right is so primary, that it cannot be denied on the basis that it is not "expressly set forth.

    --- Hugo Grotius

  10. #39
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    Just a few thoughts;
    The 147 gr. 9mm bullett as we see it may be a result of the FBI and some PD's selecting it to control overpenetration. It has progressed to this point from there.
    The 115 gr bullet has been the mainstay of the common 9mm round.
    As we have increased the velocity toward the 9mm Parabellum, we have been able to make heavier bullets more useful.
    True the 115's lacket penetration as HP's or overpenetrated as SP's.
    The closer we can get to the best one stop formula [357/125gr bullett at 1200fps or there abouts] the better bullett we will have. The one stop formula has been a proven from compilation of police records as I understand it.
    To my way of thinking, the 45 and 40 have an easier time of meeting this formula than the 9mm.
    The 9mm 147 gr bullet as I see it needs velocity to get the necessry penetration through clothing and what have you.
    The 124/127 gr. may be closest to the formula we have already.
    For me; the jury is still out on the 147 gr 9mm bullett.
    The 45 230/200 gr. bullet makes it work well as do the 40 in the heavier loads.

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by nativenyerintexas View Post
    I took the quote to mean aim at center mass as opposed to aim for the head, leg or arm. In the time when it counts, aim for the biggest target, even if you will only slow the attacker down, it beats missing the fatal, single shot to the head.
    Aim for a specific, small area on a larger target (center mass). Aiming "small" at the specific target gives greater accuracy. Larger target gives more room for error.

    Quote Originally Posted by nativenyerintexas View Post
    What don't you like about the Px4. I haven't heard anyone say anything bad about it, except that it's a Beretta. For some reason Beretta doesn't have a great reutation around here in Texas. Everyone's a Glock fan. But that might be because of what I call the 'iPod Syndrome'. I've held them but didn't like the way they felt in my hand, like holding a plastic brick. The G17 I shot, shot nice though.
    I like consistent trigger pull first to last. I do not like decockers or manually actuated safeties. As much as I wanted to love the PX4, I was not able to shoot it as easily as a consistent trigger pull firearm. I cut up my hand doing immediate action drills and slingshotting the slide (due to the decocker). And as much as I wanted to "hate" the glocks, I found out that they are the ones I can shoot the most accurately and the quickest. I have settled on the glocks because they are easy to use and they work for me.

    The other issues I had with the PX4, the superluminova paint came out of the front sight the first outing. The finish on the slide chipped off at the muzzle end after maybe 25 - 50 re-holstering. For the money I spent on the PX4 and the Beretta name, I would have expected more. I ended up putting on night sights and getting the slide and barrel refinished at additional cost to me. The plus (to me) of the PX4 is the absolute comfort of the firearm in my hand.

    You need to find what works for you. The PX4 may be it. If you are relatively new to handguns, I will predict that you (like most everyone else) will go through different guns until you find one or more that works for you.

  12. #41
    Member Array TonySoprano's Avatar
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    I have been using 147 HST but Indiana State Police switched to Glock 17s after having problems with Glock 40s and the load they are using is 147 Gold Dots. From my friends there I was told they chose that due to better windshield pentration.

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    For me, the jury is still out on the 147's. It does appear they have now learned how to make the HP open up at relativly slow velocities. But, when it opens, does this inhibit penetration through clothing and such. Right now, the 124/127 may be the best compromise.
    TonySaprano, thanks for weighing in; I've a question for you, pleae don't take this wrong. You were switched to the Gold Dots because they penetrated windshield better, but better than what, the HST's? I wonder how the GD' would compare to a larger bullet, 230 gr 45 cal., or 180 gr, 40. Perhaps you dept. won't let you carry those, but I was just curious if you had any input.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TonySoprano View Post
    I have been using 147 HST but Indiana State Police switched to Glock 17s after having problems with Glock 40s and the load they are using is 147 Gold Dots. From my friends there I was told they chose that due to better windshield pentration.
    Next time I'm out at Cabela's I'm going to pick up some Gold Dots in 147. Imight also pickup some other brands too. It doesn't hurt to have a variety of ammo squirreled away.
    It is to be observed that Right of Self-Defence, arises directly and immediately from the Care of our own Preservation, which Nature recommends to every one. . . , and that this right is so primary, that it cannot be denied on the basis that it is not "expressly set forth.

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  15. #44
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    I was told this from a ISP trooper. I use HST because they work better out of my Kahr. I usally get groups from a sandbag rest under 2" AND GoldDots same weight do about 4" at 25 yards. I have found that my Kahr perfers Federal ammo. Now 124+P+ HydraShok was my carry load for years and that was the most accurate load I shot out of my Kahr but my source dried up and after test the HST I was impressed on how well it expanded. It had a bigger diameter than the GoldDots. Now another load I have been testing is the Remington 124+P GoldenSaber an it looks good also. But for what its worth any of the name brand loads I would use if I had too. I just perfer a load that is accurate and expands from my gun and I don't carry it unless I test it and have no failures. As far as my dept I am retired medicially a good number of years and when I was working wheel guns were still the norm.I only started packing a 9mm bout 9 years ago before that I packed either a 41 or a 44 magnum that I had customized by MagnPort and they were ported and cut to 2.5" barrels and K Frame round butts.Hope that answers your questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by golfer View Post
    For me, the jury is still out on the 147's. It does appear they have now learned how to make the HP open up at relativly slow velocities. But, when it opens, does this inhibit penetration through clothing and such. Right now, the 124/127 may be the best compromise.
    TonySaprano, thanks for weighing in; I've a question for you, pleae don't take this wrong. You were switched to the Gold Dots because they penetrated windshield better, but better than what, the HST's? I wonder how the GD' would compare to a larger bullet, 230 gr 45 cal., or 180 gr, 40. Perhaps you dept. won't let you carry those, but I was just curious if you had any input.
    The couple of tests I have seen are showing expansion through 4
    layers of either t-shirt and denim then into wet packs.
    http://www.btfh.net/shoot/bullet-test-3.html
    http://www.btfh.net/shoot/bullet-test-7.html

    I'm in the porocess of collecting water jugs and hope to do a few test of my own to see if I dulpicate what I have seen.
    The only question I have is does anyone know what the ratio of penetration is between wet pack and water jugs?
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