Wet Pack Ammo Comparison Tests For Kahr PM9 (Take 2)

This is a discussion on Wet Pack Ammo Comparison Tests For Kahr PM9 (Take 2) within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Since the links I provided earlier to another site didn't work, I'll post here. I had to remove some unimportant pics in order to post ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 20

Thread: Wet Pack Ammo Comparison tests For Kahr PM9 (Take 2)

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array jgrider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    OR.
    Posts
    35

    Wet Pack Ammo Comparison tests For Kahr PM9 (Take 2)

    Since the links I provided earlier to another site didn't work, I'll post here. I had to remove some unimportant pics in order to post here.

    Hello everybody, my name is John and I'm a long time mostly lurker on different forums. Every once in awhile I'll come out of the wood work when I think that I may have something of interest to pass on. This is one of those times.
    I'll apologize in advance if the text gets to be boring, the poor focus of some of the pics, and if there are to many pics
    This past April, I got 2 Kahr PM9's for concealed carry for the wife and myself, I started looking for a reliable defense round out of the 3" barrel. We also have Kahr K9's since 1999 that we carry concealed. We've both legally carried concealed for many years.
    After not really finding many bullet comparison test results for 3" & 3 1/2" 9mm Kahr pistols, or for short barreled revolvers, I decided to run my own wet pack tests on ammo that interested me. The tests have 2 criteria, one is a good penetration to expansion ratio, and the second is to find the softest felt recoil for multiple follow up shots for my wife ( not me ).






    Before someone may get on the "practice, practice, practice" soap box, as I've read on some forums, please allow me to say that we have our own 25 yard outdoor pistol range, and she shoots more in 1 month than most people do in 1 year. She practices moving, drawing, and firing out of a fanny pack, or a custom made paddle holster, at single and multiple targets. I don't need to practice ;-)


    These tests are a work in progress as the weather allows and I collect newspaper. What I have in my favor is that I can shoot off of my back deck between downpours. My goal is to test 9mm Kahr PM9 and a K9, a 1 5/8" .38 S&W mod.60, a 2" .38 titanium S&W, a 2 1/2" .357 S&W mod. 66, and a 4 1/4" .45 1911 Colt commander or an Officers Model.

    I'll try to make my packs consistent with what I've read from people that seem to know what they're doing.
    My procedure will be to put the dry news print into plastic milk crates and then submerse them in a live stock trough for 24 hrs. I'll then lift out the crates and let the water drain out. Then I'll transfer the wet paper into a plastic garbage bag lined cardboard box. On the inside back side of the box I double up on the thickness of the cardboard. I want to allow for flexibility but also for the thicker skin of the human back. Call me obsessive.
    Since the winter climate here is mostly mild but wet, I felt that 4 layers of a denim shirt was adequate.

    All velocities are measured on a PACT mkIII timer and chronograph.
    All recovered diameters are measured at the widest points, and in some cases at two different areas, as explained below.
    All penetration measurements are the total of an inserted rod into the bullet hole to the base of the bullet plus the length of the recovered bullet.


    This first set of tests is out of a PM9. The distance is 10', with a chronograph set up mid way. I fired a maximum 9 shots into each wet pack.

    The ammo tested were, Fed. 124 Tactical (LE9T1), Fed. HST standard pressure, Fed. 147 HST, Win. 147 RA9T and an oldie, Win. 147 ST. All this ammo is labeled Law Enforcement, but can be found.







    This is Fed.124 Tactical. What a big disappointment. The bullets all traveled over 1000 fps (1042.0, 1050.9, 1059.6) out of a 3" barrel, and only one expanded (.650"). Don't be fooled by the expansion. If you push back the two protruding petals, the bullet measures.574" When I traced the bullet paths of the other two, I could see that the holes from the over penetration rounds were the same diameter, front to back. There were no attempts at any expansion. I can only conclude that the noses were plugged up.
    Federal advertises this round as +p, but the box doesn't say so, and I don't think the advertised 1160 fps velocity is +p.
    This round had the most felt recoil. (sharp snap), especially out of a polymer frame.










    These are Federal 124 HST standard pressure. At about the same velocity as the above Federal Tactical, these expanded reliably (.519", .537"). I can remember back to the 70's, early 80's when you'd be lucky to get this kind of expansion. And the penetration was 8 1/2", 9 3/8".
    In our opinion the felt recoil was sharp but didn't have the snap to it like the Federal Tactical. Less slide velocity?







    These are Federal 147 HST. All I can say is WOW! .599", and .624" expansion from a bullet only traveling at 927.5 and 929.9 fps with a penetration of 8 1/2" and 8 9/16" out of a 3" barrel. I guess that the longer score lines on the side of the bullet help with the expansion. If the formula to convert wet packs to FBI ballistic gelatin standards were close to accurate, I'd be happy with this round out of a 3" Kahr PM9 in my area's climate.
    The expanded flower was so pretty that as a goof I used the expanded bullet to stamp a flower design on some old leather.
    This is a nice low felt recoil round. It's true that the heavier 147 gr. have less felt recoil. It's a slower drawn out pulse.













    These are Winchester 147 RA9TA. To me these are a big question mark. First what do I measure for expansion, the widest point from petal tip to petal tip, or the widest part of the main core ? So I measured both. Next these rounds had the lowest velocities (811.5 and 860.3 fps) and the worst velocity spread (48.8 fps) Next when I weighed the recovered bullets, they weighed less than advertised (141.6 gr. and 144.2 gr.) I can see that some lead is missing. But yet with all these flaws these rounds had the best expansion if you measure petal tip to petal tip, and some of the best penetration. I thought that my chrono was off until I started testing with a 3 1/2" Kahr K9, but that's another test.
    I really want to like this round but I don't know if the narrow petals with the really sharp tips that do draw blood really do anything in the wound channel.They have the least felt recoil so far.













    Next up is an oldie called Winchester Ranger STX Controlled Expansion RA9STX. The expansion is really controlled. It didn't make an attempt to open at all, all the way through the wet pack. There were only two neat round holes through and through. We'll see if they do better out of a K9 just for grins. This was the kind of stuff that gave the 147 grs. a bad reputation.

    So here are my final test results.

    HIGHEST VEL.
    Fed. 124 Tac 1059.6 fps
    Fed. 124 HST 1059.3 fps
    Fed. 124 HST 1057.9 fps
    Fed. 124 Tac 1050.9 fps
    Fed. 124 Tac 1042.0 fps
    Fed. 147 HST 929.9 fps
    Fed. 147 HST 927.5 fps
    Win. 147 SXT 863.5 fps
    Win. 147 RA9T 860.3 fps
    Win. 147 SXT 852.0 fps
    Win. 147 RA9T 811.5 fps

    DEEPEST PEN.
    Fed. 124 HST 9 3/8"
    Win. 147 RA9T 8 7/8"
    Win. 147 RA9T 8 5/8"
    Fed. 147 HST 8 9/16"
    Fed. 147 HST 8 1/2"
    Fed. 124 HST 8 1/2"
    Fed. 124 Tac 8 5/16"


    WIDEST DIA.
    Win. 147 RA9T .698"
    Win. 147 RA9T .676"
    Fed 124 Tac .650"
    Fed. 147 HST .624"
    Fed. 147 HST .599"
    Fed. 124 HST .537"
    Fed. 147 HST .519"


    The next tests will be this same ammo out of a Kahr K9

    OK EVERYBODY CAN WAKE UP NOW!

    I would like to post this thread on other forums, so if I would appreciate any suggestions.

    Thanx for listening, John

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    VIP Member
    Array nn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    7,119
    Nice work

  4. #3
    Member Array AlongcameJones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    171
    jgrider, as a Kahr owner and licensed ccw, thank you! My daughter and I both carry Kahrs and we have been doing a little research (at the range) to find out what would be a good 9mm round for us to carry. We have found the HST 124gr (standard pressure) rounds to be very accurate with the 3 inch polygonal barrel. Nice to know the rounds expand reliably. We will have to try the HST 147gr as well. Thanks for all your legwork on this!!

  5. #4
    Member Array pleasantguywhopacks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    184
    Quote Originally Posted by AlongcameJones View Post
    jgrider, as a Kahr owner and licensed ccw, thank you! My daughter and I both carry Kahrs and we have been doing a little research (at the range) to find out what would be a good 9mm round for us to carry. We have found the HST 124gr (standard pressure) rounds to be very accurate with the 3 inch polygonal barrel. Nice to know the rounds expand reliably. We will have to try the HST 147gr as well. Thanks for all your legwork on this!!
    I agree and thanks!
    I am not a Kahr owner but am going to the 147 gr HST load. I hope to do some denim and water jug test myself. Not that I'm doubting you but heck I gotta have some fun myself, don't I?
    When seconds count, police are only minutes away!
    OFCC Patron
    Buckeye Firearms Assoc. supporter
    Life Member NRA

  6. #5
    Member Array done_chasing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    California
    Posts
    15
    jgrider, great article, I carry off-duty a PM9, and sometimes a Kel-Tec PF9 and your test results will be printed out and saved for my future reference. Thanks

  7. #6
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,482
    Excellent work and thank you - I have done testing like this myself and know how much work is involved. More than interesting.

    I did split up your pics to separate things a bit more - looks (even) better IMO.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  8. #7
    Member Array echo5tango's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    NOLA
    Posts
    275
    bravo; nicely detailed report!

  9. #8
    Senior Member Array sui-juris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    521
    Well done, you put a lot of time and effort into it.
    And you found a new "stamp!"

  10. #9
    Ex Member Array jgrider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    OR.
    Posts
    35
    Hello everybody, thanks for the kind words.

    AlongcameJones said
    "We have found the HST 124gr (standard pressure) rounds to be very accurate with the 3 inch polygonal barrel. Nice to know the rounds expand reliably. We will have to try the HST 147gr as well."

    I think your daughter would really like the 147 gr. They have a lighter felt recoil than the 124 gr. We carry 147 Win RA9T in the PM9's because of the really light felt recoil,and deeper penetration, and 147 HST in the K9's. For my wife, who practices drawing and firing, the 147 Win. allows her to do double and triple taps into a 9" paper plate attached to an IPSC target at 10 yards. With the 147gr out of the PM9, her split times between shots after the first shot are .29 seconds. With the 124 HST standard pressure, her splits open up to around .35 seconds because of the added recovery time.This is with all hits in the plate. When we tried +P ammo her splits more than doubled from .29 seconds while trying to find the front sight. She also practices one handed, point and hip shooting. The +P's are uncontrollable for her, first shot into the thoracic area then climbing, and the pistol slipping in her grasp.

    pleasantguywhopacks said
    "I hope to do some denim and water jug test myself. Not that I'm doubting you but heck I gotta have some fun myself, don't I?"

    Have fun, but I warn you it can get addictive. Everytime I get a new bullet I have to test it. I've been doing this privately for a long time. I just recently came out In the past I've used mud,wet phone books, gallon milk jugs, and and now wet newspaper which I find most consistant for comparisons. I'm going to build myself what's called a Fackler box and stack one gallon water filled freezer bags one behind the other in it.

    done_chasing, P95Carry
    Since you're doing something with the results and pics, I'm adding 2 more pics that this site wouldn't allow me to up load because of the 12 pic rule. One is to show the hard work, sweat and tears that I put into this project, and the other is the third pic that should have gone into the 124 HST results.





    I don't know if any of you read my test results for the K9. If not I'm adding here the last thing I had to say in that thread.

    "My observations on the bullet designs for those that may be intertested.

    On the Win 147 the jacket peels away from the lead core. There is a section of the jacket petals just before the talon tip that is thicker and helps support the talons to stay extended. If a talon is forced all the way back, the petal cracks at this point. This thicker jacket wall is at the tip of the cavity wall when the bullet is intact. Other than the thicker section of jacket, I think that the Win jacket is thinner than the Fed HST.

    WIN 147 RA9T



    On the Feds 124gr. and 147 gr.the tip of the jacket unfolds from around the the lead core and as it folds back ,it takes the core with it. That's why there's the flower pattern. The jacket petals look like they start almost flat at the core but then where the lead ends, two side walls appear on the petals. (To me it resembles channel iron) and then the walls taper down near the tip. It looks like the HST jacket is thicker than the Win 147. It seems that the 147 has unusually long score lines."

    Fed 124 HST



    Fed 147HST

  11. #10
    Moderator
    Array Bark'n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    West Central Missouri
    Posts
    9,916
    jgrider... well your rookie year is almost up and only 8 posts. You should lurk less and post more!

    Thanks for the very informative report and for taking the time and effort to set it up nicely.

    While I don't have a Kahr, I do have a 3" XP9sc so naturally I am interested in 9mm results from short barrel pistols.

    I would be forever greatful if you get a chance to specifically test the Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot "short barrel" ammo and possibly the same ammo that doesn't have the "short barrel" designation.

    Also the Hornady 124gr. TAP FPD ammo.

    Those are the two rounds I carry after much recommendation but I've never seen expansion/penetration tests performed on those. Especially the Speer Gold Dot "short barrel" rounds.

    Thanks for posting! A very fine job!

    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  12. #11
    Member Array Arkhangel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    296
    Thanx for the very informative post! Great pics!

    SY

  13. #12
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,482
    John - thx for the extra material. I am putting in two pics which might fill the gap slightly re Gold Dots. Quite a long time ago I did some tests with std pressure 9mm thru an R9 ... and in fact keep mine loaded with 124 GD's.

    These pics show the ''peel-back'' pattern from the bullets - generally I found very consistent. I did make up a chart of chrono info, albeit with quite small samples .... but giving some comparitive figures. My Amerc tests were wierd - the ammo was junk anyways but I think too I may have had bad readings due to powder particles or something.






    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  14. #13
    Ex Member Array jgrider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    OR.
    Posts
    35
    Bark'n asked
    I would be forever greatful if you get a chance to specifically test the Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot "short barrel" ammo and possibly the same ammo that doesn't have the "short barrel" designation.

    Also the Hornady 124gr. TAP FPD ammo.

    Hi
    I really have no interest in the +P ammo. especially the outrageously priced box of 20 Speer 124 GD +P S.B. We did have a L.E. box of 50 regular Speer 124 GD +P. I didn't get to run any tests with them. My wife used them all up just trying to learn to control follow up shots with her PM9. We didn't like them.

    All our test always lead us back to the 147 grs. FYI, the tests for each bullet you see posted aren't the only tests I've done. For our climate a non +P round is adequate. The 147 gr. has enough penetration, which should be primary, and gives reliable expansion to stop over penetration, with a bigger wound cavity being a bonus. I want to carry a round that is always controllable, whether shooting two handed, one handed, while moving, shooting back over my shoulder while running away . Over penetration and uncontrolled misses scare me.

    These are my thoughts on +P ammo

    The 115 gr has to be pushed at +P velocities for adequate penetration and expansion because of it's light weight, and even then it could be easily deflected.And the recoil pulse is too sharp from a polymer frame pistol.

    The 124 gr would benefit from +P velocities during the winter months in heavy clothing areas. Again the felt recoil is sharp. But for the summer or mild climate areas, a good 124 gr. standard pressure round would work for me.

    The 147 gr. has shown me, in most cases, the best penetration with great expansion for civilian application. All this from bullets traveling under 1000 fps. And it has a slow drawn out recoil pulse for the least felt recoil for controlled follow up shots.

    As for the Hornady 124gr. TAP FPD ammo, I may try them in the future. First I have some 200 gr. .45 TAP FPD to test.

    If you have 2 or 3 extra each of the rounds that you want tested, you can send them to me and I'll test them for you.
    John
    Last edited by jgrider; December 14th, 2007 at 08:30 AM.

  15. #14
    Member Array Mighty HD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    64
    VERY impressive.

    IT's guys like you who make a difference in this community. +100 for you.
    Mighty HD

  16. #15
    Member Array czydj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    US of A
    Posts
    58
    Quote Originally Posted by jgrider View Post
    OK EVERYBODY CAN WAKE UP NOW!

    I would like to post this thread on other forums, so if I would appreciate any suggestions.

    Thanx for listening, John

    Put me to sleep? NO way! I was riveted to my screen!


    Great job, John!!!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Duty Ammo tests on Video
    By CSI in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: December 5th, 2009, 09:45 PM
  2. Which size Tommys Gun Pack for Kahr PM9?
    By shootist16 in forum Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: November 28th, 2008, 10:09 AM
  3. Kahr CW9 / Glock 26 carry comparison wanted
    By Freedomofchoice in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: May 28th, 2008, 07:56 AM
  4. Wet Pack Ammo Comparison tests For Kahr K9 (Take 2)
    By jgrider in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: December 27th, 2007, 03:24 AM
  5. Wet Pack Ammo Comparison tests For Kahr PM9 & K9
    By jgrider in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: December 10th, 2007, 06:40 PM

Search tags for this page

147 hst pm9
,
kahr cw9 ammo test
,
kahr pm9 ammo review
,

kahr pm9 ammo test

,
kahr pm9 ammo tests
,

kahr pm9 chronograph

,
kahr pm9 fanny packs
,
kahr pm9 modifications
,
kahr pm9 test
,
pm9 chrono test
,
wet pack ammo test
,
wet pack bullet tests
Click on a term to search for related topics.