Cocktail mix in your magazines (Merged)

This is a discussion on Cocktail mix in your magazines (Merged) within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I know this exist in old threads,but they where closed.Feel free to delete this thread if am stepping one someones toes here.. "Bark'n" said on ...

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Thread: Cocktail mix in your magazines (Merged)

  1. #1
    AH [OP]
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    Cocktail mix in your magazines (Merged)

    I know this exist in old threads,but they where closed.Feel free to delete this thread if am stepping one someones toes here..

    "Bark'n" said on May 15th, 2007, 08:05 AM;

    "To alternate hollow points and FMJ in the same magazine seems dangerous from a liability stand point.
    Keep magazines loaded with bullets of the same kind."

    -Am not a lawyer but would someone please explain that statement to me?Is there a problem lawfully to use a cocktail blend?


    "vernonator" said on May 15th, 2007, 02:18 PM;

    "All the training/reading I have done says NOT to do this. One is the over penetration factor mentioned by others. Two is you want every round to act the same way, a FMJ and HP may (or most probably will) have different POI's for the same POA....."

    -Not following the initials here,sorry.I know that most close protection education reccomend you do use a cocktail blend.

    Other mention that you have to remember what bullet is what.
    -Why is that?Has that something to do with the liabillity?

    When it comes to the weapons feeding problems..Why would it have feeding problem with a mix of hollow point and another type?

    Thanks.
    -Alan

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    It has to do with reliability issues not Legal ones.

    POA vs POI is Point of Aim and Point of Impact.

    Different bullet types behave differently. They might cause jams, have different preformances and cause other issues.

    It is better to just keep one type that works.

    I carry on mag of Hydroshocks for my .380 and a spare mag of FMJ's, I do not mix and match bullet types in the mag.
    Sometimes I wonder who the old man in the mirror is....

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    What close protection education are you talking about? I know that the Secret Service and the Diplomatic Security Service (the two biggest close protection outfits going) do not do this, nor do they teach this under normal circumstances.

    I know some PPD (a few, not most) guys in Iraq and Afghanistan who alternate JHP and FMJ, in the same bullet weights, in their 9mms - the idea (to them) is to give them a better chance of penetrating common vehicular barriers like window glass and car doors. Most folks do not spend their working day fighting from and against vehicles, so it seems like the cons outweigh the pros for most folks.

    All that being said - if you test the reliability, if you give up nothing in accuracy, consistancy, controlability, etc.... It's your gun, your mags, and your ammo.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    It's called "Dutch loading" and is more common than you may think, but it is best to practice and make sure you gun has no issues with this method.
    Now my HK for example will function fine with any ammo in any order, +P stuff is dead on with this gun, and the accuracy difference you would encounter at most SD ranges is very small, in the 1/2" or less ballpark.
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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Most people toss the word liability around without having a clue about it.

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    Given the many well-documented cases of FMJ over-penetration (as an example, the collection of cases Mas Ayoob presented a couple months ago in Handguns), I'd really avoid using it for personal defense.

    I just don't see any advantage to mixing FMJ and JHP in a defensive pistol for the average CCW.

    Matt
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    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Cocktail mix in your magazines
    Everything else put aside, I've never heard of this sort of thing. I have a mag full of 5.56 where I alternate one tracer round for every 4 HP rounds. With pistols? Carry pistol mags at that? I wouldn't do it.

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    Senior Member Array Sky Pilot's Avatar
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    OOPS!
    Sorry, fellows, I thought this dealt with accidental introduction of adult beverage into the spring loaded dispenser!
    Reason I thought this ... back home in the hill country, it was considered great sport to pour the cop's holster full of beer when he walked through the local watering hole, making his bar checks...
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    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Pilot View Post
    OOPS!
    Sorry, fellows, I thought this dealt with accidental introduction of adult beverage into the spring loaded dispenser!
    Reason I thought this ... back home in the hill country, it was considered great sport to pour the cop's holster full of beer when he walked through the local watering hole, making his bar checks...

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    Back in the early 1980s, our police chief was a personal friend as well as my part-time boss (I was a PT PO). One day we're talking in his office and he pulls a gorgeous S&W 27 revolver out of his desk drawer, unloads it and hands it to me to check out the action job on the gun (very sweet).

    I gave him an "Ahem! That doesn't look like issue ammo to me" spiel. He had two semi-wadcutter .38SP rds, then 2 JHP .357 and not certain but 2 others may have been FMJ .357. Meanwhile we had to carry only the .38SP semi-wadcutters.

    He told me that if he didn't stop them with the first pair, then the 2nd might do more damage, etc.

    He was the boss and the rules didn't apply to him! He was also an expert marksman with trophies in his office. He was a Marine who served in Korea and was trim and fit to the very end (regrettably cancer at age 57).

    That was the first and only "cocktail mix" that I ever ran into.

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    Funny how all of this stuff is cyclic. Back in the 60's everyone clamored for automatic pistols that had a double action first shot capability and for expanding bullets to replace the ineffective FMJ bullets.

    Now everybody wants to carry them cocked and locked, have no use for the double action first shot, and want to go back to the same old ineffective FMJ loads. Go figger!

    But hey, maybe they'll bring back the '57 Chevy Bel Air two door hardtop. Y'think?

    JayPee

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    AH [OP]
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    What close protection education are you talking about? I know that the Secret Service and the Diplomatic Security Service (the two biggest close protection outfits going) do not do this, nor do they teach this under normal circumstances.
    My mistake,am not talking about Police and public LE but private security.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Most people toss the word liability around without having a clue about it.
    And then again there are those who know exactly what they are talking about...

    In this case, I was referring to court room liability at a criminal murder/manslaughter trial; and not civil liability against an ammunition or gun manufacturer.

    I'm not sure how many murder/manslaughter trials you've set in on but I have set in on somewhere in the neighborhood of a dozen, and have testified in three. I have also read the pertinent parts of court transcripts of about 100 cases and read countless articles on other cases.

    I have another capital murder case coming up next month I'll be sitting in on parts of it since I know the defendant having met him a few times. He was the boyfriend of a co-worker for a couple years. Long story, but suffice it to say she has had "men problems" in her life.

    Ammunition becomes an issue at trial quite frequently and often times its from a lawyer trying to make a red herring out of it.

    Again, lots of times it's a red herring and can be successfully defended, but having to do so adds expense to the trial and often times just confuses the jury.

    Having to hire multiple expert witnesses can get expensive real quick.

    It's best to avoid going down that road altogether whenever possible.

    Just as an example, one can make the case that more than one gunman was present during the shooting and depending on the quality of the evidence team doing crime scene analysis or the ballistics tests, a lot of wrong conclusions can be made.

    Rules of evidence may even prevent your side from even being heard at trial.

    Two border patrol agents are doing 12 years in prison, in my opinion because a lot of exculpatory medical and ballistic evidence was successfully suppressed from the jury by the prosecution at trial.

    To me, the potential minefield of courtroom liability far outweighs the benefit of having a "mixed bag" of ammo loaded in your magazines. In my opinion.

    I believe I recommended that if you feel the absolute need to have both FMJ rounds for penetration in a hard target and JHP's for expansion in a soft target, it might be better to have a separate spare magazine loaded with the FMJ. This may also decrease the possibility, however small, of any failure to feed problems.

    I also hold back at least 5 or 6 rounds of my self defense ammo kept in their original box with date of manufacture and lot number to be used for ballistic testing purposes should it become needed at trial. Several short sighted people, in my opinion have commented that is a stupid idea and totally unnecessary but there are plenty of cases where that has been an issue. Likewise, there are a whole slew or reasons why I won't use hand loads or reloads for my self defense ammo.

    Just my opinion and reasons behind it, your mileage may vary.

    Bottom line is, it's your life or your trial, do as you wish, not as I say. No offense taken on my part. Just hoping to clarify a point for a new member to the forum.
    -Bark'n
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    I'll sound off here, and my opinion isn't worth 2 cents most of the time........

    I got training early on (back in the 80's) about this from two seperate but very reliable people who were paid to review this stuff and train on the information/conclusions.. The subject was touched on briefly but long enough to make an impression. It was a school of thought to load Hi-cap magizines with both JHP's and FMJ's.....the first few shots being JHP's followed by the FMJ's because if you were in an extended gunfight then shooting through cover/consealment would come into play, hence the need for the penatrating FMJ's.
    This might work for people who shoot and get shot at on a daily/regular basis, but I think it's a non-issue with my own enviroment....JHP's alone do me just fine.
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    VIP Member Array crzy4guns's Avatar
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    Most premium jhps these days offer better penetration than the regular jhps on the shelfs today. I am talking about the hydra shoks, gold dots, golden sabres, DPXs and other premium loads. There would be little to no advantage mixing fmjs with jhps. Therefore the legal issue becomes a moot point.

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