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Cartridge Discussion: .25 ACP

152K views 130 replies 85 participants last post by  Pete63 
#1 · (Edited)
How many folks out there are going to admit to having a handgun chambered for the .25 ACP? If ownership of the .25 ACP is admitted then how many have actually carried a handgun so chambered? It’s a cartridge that is frequently criticized as being too unsubstantial for use for serious self-defense yet ammunition is sold each year for this pipsqueak . Somebody’s using it for something.

The .25 ACP is one of our really old semi-auto pistol cartridges. It was introduced in 1905 or 1906, depending on the reference, in the FN Model 1906. Both pistol and cartridge were of Browning design. Once the semi-auto pistol became accepted and came in general use at the beginning of the 20th century, a number of designs in different sizes and chambered for a host of new cartridges were marketed to those who felt the need to possess a handgun for self-defense. The smallest practical sizes marketed were any of several models termed vest pocket pistols. Most of these were designed around the .25 ACP or 6.35 Browning as it is known in Europe. These diminutive pistols occupied about the same space as the smallest one or two shot derringers of the previous century but featured higher ammunition capacity contained in handy magazines that made recharging more convenient. Due to the relatively high velocity of the .25 ACP cartridge, handguns so chambered offered striking effectiveness equal or exceeding many of the low-powered rim fire, pin fire, or center fire pocket pistols marketed in the later decades of the 19th century. A light-weight-for-caliber .22, .25, .30, .32, .38, or at best .41 caliber bullet traveling at 400-500 fps is anemic in the extreme. Many thousands of small semi-auto pistols taking the .25 ACP were sold worldwide over the next 75 years or so. Among the well known brands were some really fine handguns made and sold in .25 ACP including Astra, Beretta, Browning, Colt, FN, Mauser, Ortgies, Sauer, and Walther. These are finely made and exhibit design and craftsmanship fully equal to larger handguns from those firms.

GCA ’68 and a change in tastes caused the popularity of high quality arms chambered for the .25 ACP to wan by the 1970’s. The cartridge became the provenance of the inexpensive semi-auto pistol. It seems that such low quality pistols, with their uneven functional reliability, further tarnished the reputation of the .25 as a serious defensive cartridge. Design advancements in the 1980’s and 1990’s made more powerful cartridges available in pistols almost as small as many .25 pistols. These days there are not a lot of choices out there if one wants to purchase a new .25 pistol.

So, What Can It Do?

For starters the .25 fully possesses the capability to kill a person very dead. It has laid many low in it’s century plus usage. It must be remembered that the .25 pistol is not a toy and absolutely must be given the same respect that any firearm should be accorded.

I’ve toted and used the .25 on occasion and have some notion of its capabilities. Upon considering the Kel Tec P3AT, it’s .380 ACP cartridge, and its overall size compared to my Colt Model 1908 I decided to retire the .25 as a deep concealment handgun and go with the P3AT and its more effective cartridge. Previously I’d slipped the little Colt in my hip pocket behind my wallet if I didn’t think I could contrive to hide anything larger.


The Kel Tec P3AT is scarcely larger than the Colt Model 1908 but offers significantly more punch.

Years ago I saw my first example of .25 ACP effectiveness and it was sorry indeed. I’d left a hunting vest on a tank dam where I’d been dove hunting one afternoon. Before work the next morning I drove out past the edge of town to the pasture to retrieve the vest. I slipped my Beretta Model 1919 .25 ACP behind my wallet and began hiking up a fence row to the stock tank. About 300 yards up the path from the road I suddenly found myself face to face with a coyote which was sitting on it’s haunches in the broom weeds at the edge of the path I was traveling. Pleased to have an opportunity to rid the countryside of one of the varmints I whipped out the .25 pistol and fired full into the center of the coyote’s chest, seeing dust and fur fly where the bullet struck. The distance couldn’t have been more than 5 yards. The coyote whirled and ran off. I’m sure I could ascertain a baleful look in its eye as it turned to run, contemptuous of my ordnance.

Someone once dumped an old washing machine in a gully on our gun club property. I took advantage of the opportunity to fire a few shots into its side with this .25 Beretta. The result was chipped paint and deep puckers. No bullet penetrated the side of the washer. A few more shots with a Smith & Wesson Model 17 .22 Long Rifle revolver penetrated the washer’s side. What was this? The .22 would pierce the sheet metal. I knew the Beretta was old, its bore ravaged by corrosive priming. The rifling was only a shadow in the pitted surfaces of the bore. I speculated that bore condition could be affecting my .25’s effectiveness.

At the next Fort Worth gun show I swapped the Beretta and cash for a Colt Model 1908 .25 that had a sparkling clean bore Since the washer was still at the range I stopped by and fired some more .25 ammo at its side. The shots from the Colt completely penetrated the sheet metal. Moral to the story is: if ya’ pistole ain’t got much horsepower to begin with, be sure it’s in good condition ‘cause you’re gonna need all the help you can get.

One evening my brother-in-law called me to talk handloading and guns. I was walking around in the house on the cell phone while visiting with him and happened to look out our front door. There on the porch sat a feral cat that I’d been gunning for. With no explanation other than “Hang on Bo” I held the phone against my chest with my left hand, fetched the .25, which happened to be nearby, eased the door open a crack, and popped the cat through both shoulders. The bullet exited and made a small, flaked mark in the concrete. The cat launched itself off the porch but immediately keeled over at the edge of the sidewalk in the grass. He’d traveled about 8 feet. He was about 10 feet from the muzzle of the Colt when I fired. Bo exclaimed, “What was that?” I replied that I’d just taken out a cat that was hanging around tormenting Wally, our kids’ new kitten.

I used the Colt .25 to administer a finishing shot to a buck once. I’d hit a buck deer high in the spine on a broadside shot with a .30-30 as he trotted through the edge of some oak woods. He was down but not out so I placed the .25 down close to the back of his head and pressed the trigger. As the shot rang out I observed the spent .25 FMJ bullet roll out of his right nostril onto the leaves, completely undamaged except for the rifling marks. The .25 effectively administered the coup de grace but was completely spent in traversing the deer’s head.

A few armadillos, ‘possums, and a ‘**** that was found beneath our camper on a deer lease have given their all to my .25 ACP and it proved to be effective on these varmints.

A Stinker to Shoot

I’ve owned an Astra Model 1916 (?), a couple of Colt Model 1908 .25 pistols and a Browning Baby since I traded out of that old Beretta. I get a kick out of shooting the diminutive pistols but can’t say I’m good at it. The sights are rudimentary, the triggers are a chore, and there just isn’t much for me to hold onto. The Browning Baby was about as tedious as shooting a .44 Magnum with full power loads because of this. The Colt Model 1908 seems to offer a bit more to hold. All .25 ACP pistols are loud enough to ring one’s ears if hearing protection is not worn. Despite the small pistols’ general unsuitability for use I’ve been know to wile away part of an afternoon trying to shoot distant targets with them for fun. There’s a good-sized mesquite tree at the end of the road leading to the lake cabin that is slightly smaller in diameter than a skinny man. The distance is around 100 yards from the cabin yard. It’s possible but not easy to chip and nick the bark on the tree with .25 bullets. The last time I played at this game I had my best results shooting prone.

Oh the Raw Power!

The traditional factory ballistic figures quoted for the .25 ACP with it’s standard 51 grain full metal jacketed bullet is 760 fps with 64 ft./lbs. of energy. Many shooters consider the .25 ACP to be inferior to the .22 Long Rifle for self defense. This isn't entirely true as may be seen. It’s one thing to fire a .22 Long Rifle from a handgun with a four inch to eight inch barrel yet quite another to fire it from a typical vest pocket pistol with it’s barrel length of perhaps two inches at most. Perspectives change when firing both cartridges from similar handguns. It is said that the .25 ACP feeds more reliably than the longer rimmed .22 Long Rifle. There may be some truth to that statement as my .25 ACP semi-auto pistols have fed and functioned with perfect reliability.

Because some folks are gluttons for punishment, die sets for handloading the .25 are available. Picking out .25 ACP cases from the typical litter of .22 rim fire cases on the ground at the range is enough to make one cross-eyed. Once set up for handloading the tiny components aren’t quite as bad to handle as may be imagined. I handload for the .25 ACP as I must have a low threshold of entertainment. My RCBS Uniflow powder measure can just be adjusted to reliably throw the maximum listed charge of Unique. It won’t go any lower and is easier to set just a little over the maximum listed charge weight for Unique. I’ve only attempted to load Bullseye and Unique in the .25 ACP. I’d assumed that Bullseye would be the best choice but Unique gives higher velocities using maximum published loads. The .25 ACP would have to be the least expensive cartridge of all to handload if one troubled himself to cast bullets for it. I’m just not that dedicated.

The Inevitable tests

My brother-in-law and I recently spent a pleasant afternoon testing the .25 ACP and the .22 Long Rifle in a pair of Berettas he has. These two pistols have barrels of the same length. Below find data from this afternoons tests along with some additional .25 ACP data including handloads.


The two Beretta pistols used in testing.

.25 ACP Factory loads

Remington 51 grain FMJ, MV 789 fps, ME 71 ft./lbs.
Winchester 50 grain FMJ, MV 852 fps, ME 82 ft./lbs.*
Hornady XTP 35 grain hollowpoint MV 1004 fps, ME 78*

.25 ACP Handloads

Remington 51 grain bullet, 1.6 grains Unique, MV 853 fps, ME 82 ft./lbs.
Remington 51 grain bullet, 1.2 grains Bullseye, 728 fps, ME 60 ft./lbs.
Rem. 51 grain bullet, (can't tell-it's a secret) Unique, MV 933 fps, ME 99 ft./lbs.



Selected .22 Long Rifle cartridges fired from a Beretta Model 21A

Remington high-velocity copper plated 40 grain solid (Golden Bullet)*
MV 842 fps, ME 63 ft./lbs.

Remington high-velocity lead 36 grain hollow point*
MV 865 fps, ME 60 ft./lbs.

Winchester high-velocity lead 40 grain solid*
MV 854 fps, ME 65 ft./lbs.

Winchester high-velocity copper plated 36 grain hollow point*
MV 894 fps, ME 64 ft./lbs

A Colt Model 1908 and a Oehler Model 12 chronograph were used except (*) in which a Beretta Model 950 B .25 ACP and a Beretta Model 21A .22 Long Rifle were tested over a Chrony chronograph. Coincidentally, the Winchester factory 50 grain load checked out identically when fired from both the Colt and the Beretta and the Unique handload was only one foot per second faster.


When considering the midget automatics, I'd prefer the .25 ACP to the .22 Long Rife though the difference is so minuscule as to be pointless. The .25 ACP feeds more reliably, the heavier and slightly larger .25 bullet shows equivalent velocities, and the fully jacketed design should deform less and offer more penetration. In tests against the '92 Dodge pickup fender the .25 ACP was noticeably more reliable in penetrating it than was the .22 Long Rifle when fired from the short barreled pistols. Neither was 100% successful in penetrating the fender. Not sure just what this test on the fender proves.

If one is required to utilize the .25 ACP for self-defense the original 51 grain loading looks like the best bet in my view. Lately the standard full metal jacketed bullet is listed as 50 grains. The cartridge will never have the reputation as a stopper. In order for it to do it’s best work it needs to penetrate to a vital organ. The lighter weight, expanding bullets offered by some ammunition manufacturers in an effort to provide “enhanced performance” appear to me to be more likely to fail to adequately penetrate. Some of these are: 40 grain Glazer Safety Slug, 45 grain Winchester Super-X Expanding Point, 35 grain Hornady XTP hollow point, and 35 grain Speer Gold Dot hollow point. The whiz-bang fancy .25 slug that opens up effectively won’t do much good if it opens up in the lining of a winter jacket or perhaps a rib bone or skull, leaving an assailant who is even more agitated. I’ve had no experience with any “high performance” .25 ACP ammunition so am not qualified to say what it would do. What’s more, I don’t intend to purchase a bunch of different brands order to find out what they could do. Penetration would be the first priority when selecting ammunition to carry in these pistols.

If it's all one has in his possession, a .25 ACP pistol chould certainly be pressed into service for defense. It’d be better than nothing. A well-thrown punch generates more foot-pounds of energy but one must close with the adversary in order to land a blow. Since very small pistols are now available in more powerful cartridges there isn't really place for the .25 ACP in one’s self defense arsenal. It’s appeal in the 21st century lies in the collectors' fascination for the finely finished examples of the miniature handguns made in this chambering.

Now if I could only find a nice example of one of those scarce Walther PP’s chambered for .25 ACP…
 
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#29 ·
Over 40 years ago I bought a tiny .25 Colt pistol in a pawn shop in Tuscon for $25. In Vietnam, I carried it always deep in my vest strictly as a last ditch backup in case I had no other weapon left. It was unlikely I would ever "lose" it. I also planned to use it on myself in case of imminent capture in certain areas over there. Fortunately, I never had to use it in either mode, but it did give me some peace of mind.

I know of only one time a similar .25 weapon was used over there - and in that instance it did prevent the guy from getting captured. He was able to shoot in the face at very close range an NVA with a rifle who was capturing him but got distracted by a strafing run on their position. The enemy was very close, at his arms length. But it worked out OK. He apparently stopped the bad guy and he fortunately got rescued shortly afterwards.

Say what you will about this anemic mousegun. It would be anybody's last choice, but it has been successful in certain situations.

Nowadays, of course, I would elect to carry a LCP or P3AT. But there was no other similar choice in those days.

So, I salute the lowly .25 ACP - but I would always carry something else if it were available.
 
#30 ·
cvhoss said:

I usually make it a point not to be a "caliber snob", arguing that the gun in your pocket is better than the one at home that you couldn't carry. The 25 acp is where I draw the line. Maybe in days gone by, it was an option due to lack of competing guns of similar size, but that is no longer true. Handguns of equal size and cost are readily available which to me, makes the 25 acp obsolete as a defensive cartridge.
Readily available in Kansas, you mean - and in most of the free United States. Unfortunately for those of us who live in Massachusetts, which has had a choke-hold on its gun-owning population since the implementation of the Attorney General's list of what guns may be sold in the state, options are severely limited.

No new Kel-Tecs.

No new Kahrs.

No Rohrbaughs.

No new North American Arms (NAA)

No Ruger LCP

No Seecamp .380 - though we can buy the California Edition .32. I have one, and it's basically a single-shot with a spare ammo compartment in the grip. This thread isn't the place for a discussion of the Seecamp's merits, so I'm not going to start, and I hope no one else does either.

I only list the above brands that we can't purchase in MA to make the point that, even though it's not as if the .25 is your only choice here (most people have Seecamp .32s), there's a much greater chance than there is in, say, Kansas that an old .25 such as the Colt 1908 or the Baby Browning will be chosen for a pocket gun because of the many, many fewer pocket gun choices we have here. There are quite a few venerable and inexpensive little peashooters in gun shops that are chambered for the .25. Old guns like these we can buy from dealers, provided they were registered in the state prior to the enaction of the restrictive legislation/regulations.

So in some special cases, people may find themselves in a position where the a tiny .25 ACP pistol is what they wind up with, for any number of reasons - laws and regulations as mentioned above, or else one is already in their possession and they don't have money for anything else, or a person is unlicensed and needs to carry anyway and it's the only thing available with no option for new purchase, etc.
 
#31 ·
I am with cvhoss on this one as my previous posts on this thread would indicate.

However, I am not insensitive to your situation Piglet and would suggest either carrying Magsafe or Glaser Safety Slugs in a .25 acp.

Better yet, if I lived in MA., I would get a J frame S&W revolver and if recoil is a problem, get one that is in .32 H&R magnum. You can still find some new 431/432s even though they have been discontinued. Surely S&W revolvers with their internal locks are allowed in MA.

BTW your Seecamp was originally designed to handle the .32 Winchester Silvertip HP only as any other .32 acp round is too long overall to feed reliably. Try the .380 Silvertip HP and see if that doesn't fix your problem. If you can get your Seecamp to work properly it would be an excellent CC gun.

Good luck, and hopefully one day those restrictions will be lifted in your state!
 
#32 ·
Piglet,
My apologies for forgetting about those folks who don't live in "Free America". I tend to forget sometimes how much tougher it is on those of you in the really restrictive states. If you're ever going to be traveling through SE Kansas, drop me a line and we'll go out to the range and you can shoot all of my stuff that they won't let you have at home.

Hoss
 
#34 ·
Sure, I'll admit to owning a .25. Bought a Raven Arms nearly twenty years ago at a gun show for around fifty bucks. Put a couple of magazines of ball through it to test function, loaded two mags with Glaser Safety Slugs, and it's been in the back of the safe since!

I've toyed with sticking it in my pocket when I wasn't carrying a gun, but haven't to date. I guess it might do the job if somebody comes at you with a knife or something - scare off the perp.

Or not.
 
#36 ·
cvhoss said:

My apologies for forgetting about those folks who don't live in "Free America". I tend to forget sometimes how much tougher it is on those of you in the really restrictive states. If you're ever going to be traveling through SE Kansas, drop me a line and we'll go out to the range and you can shoot all of my stuff that they won't let you have at home.
Hoss, no apologies needed, of course :redface:. And that's a really nice offer, thanks. Never been to that part of the country, actually, and would love to go sometime.

crzy4guns said:

Better yet, if I lived in MA., I would get a J frame S&W revolver and if recoil is a problem, get one that is in .32 H&R magnum. You can still find some new 431/432s even though they have been discontinued. Surely S&W revolvers with their internal locks are allowed in MA.
Yup, we can buy J-frames with no problem. I have a number of them and love them (the 640 .357 is one of my all-time favorite firearms, and the 340PD, though hard on the hands even with .38s, is an amazing feat of engineering). It's just that there's a vast size difference between a J-frame and tiny autos like the Seecamp and many of the little .25s. For a bona fide pocket gun, especially for those of us who are on the small side (5' 10", 180 lb), the J is a little big. I have tried it, with several different holsters, and it's no-go from a concealment perspective. It carries and draws just fine, but doesn't hide well enough to give me peace of mind.

So I'm looking at a Baby Browning .25, and am giving a lot of thought to ammo selection. Edited to add: Please note that this isn't a primary gun, just a last-ditch back-up piece.

Something that has struck me more than once in regard to .25 ACP hollowpoints versus FMJ: Many people advise the use of FMJ, and justify the recommendation by pointing out that penetration is a big concern with this weak cartridge. And that's definitely true. But what seems to be a common assumption among those who favor FMJ is that the .25 ACP hollowpoints will expand, and will therefore not penetrate as deeply as the FMJ will.

I'm not entirely satisfied that this is the case. Let me explain, and then tell me what you guys think.

I remember firing a couple rounds of Winchester Expanding Point .25 rounds into a bunch of 1-gallon plastic milk jugs filled with water and placed in a row. The gun used was a Beretta 21A Bobcat, and neither round expanded. They both penetrated what seemed to me to be very deeply, though I can't recall how many jugs exactly.

In addition, over the years I've heard a number of accounts of people doing their own informal tests of mouseguns (.22, .25, .32, not .380), and in a great many cases, I'd even say most cases, where hollowpoints in these calibers were tested out of short barrels, they failed to expand.

Now, if you have a hollowpoint that, through testing, can be confirmed to reliably NOT expand out of a given gun, you basically have a FMJ with a blunt tip that is probably lighter, though loaded somewhat hotter, than conventional FMJ ammo, do you not?

Correct me if I'm missing something, but it seems to me that what this permits you to do is to consider such .25 hollowpoints as glorified FMJ rounds (test to verify non-expansion, if you've got the equipment) and then enjoy your new-found freedom to choose what amounts to a lighter, faster FMJ round if you think that will be better than the traditional, heavier, slower FMJ.

Here are some numbers:

Fiocchi 35-grain XTP HP....... 900 fps, no test barrel length given
Fiocchi 50-grain FMJ ............800 fps, "
Speer 35-grain GDHP...........900 fps, 2" test barrel
Winchester 50-grain FMJ......760 fps, no test barrel length given
Winchester 45-grain Exp. Pt. .815 fps, "
Hornady 35-grain XTP HP......900 fps, 2" test barrel

So, does anyone have any thoughts about whether you'd choose the lighter, faster route over the heavier, slower one - assuming that neither round will expand?

Anyone have any experience regarding the functional reliability of .25 ACP hollowpoints in tiny pistols?
 
#37 ·
Piglet,
I don't know if this is right or wrong but it is what I do and why when trying to decide on the most effective pistol cartridge for a defensive handgun. First, I pick the type of bullet I want to use based on observed performance of that bullet type for a given caliber. After that, I almost always go for the combination that produces the most muzzle energy and here's why. A slower, heavier bullet usually only surpasses a faster, lighter bullet for performance when long shooting distances are occurring (100 or more yards for a pistol caliber). Given a far enough distance, the slower, heavier bullet with less muzzle energy will surpass the retained energy of the faster, lighter bullet that had more muzzle energy. The reason is that the heavier bullet holds onto it's energy longer than the lighter bullet.

However, at defensive pistol distances, this difference never gets a chance to materialize and the faster, lighter bullet will normally have significantly more energy than the slower, heavier bullet and it's energy that penetrates but more importantly, breaks bones. For a bullet to penetrate, the first thing it has to do for a head or COM shot is break bone. The fact that a heavier bullet may penetrate further in ballistic gelatin is only important if you're planning on gut shooting the BG where no bones will be encountered. Just like in distance through the air, the heavier bullet will penetrate further in tissue because it still is holding onto it's energy longer. But, if the first thing the bullet encounters is heavy bone and it doesn't have enough energy to break through the bone, how long it holds onto it's energy becomes irrelevant.

For your specific question on the 25, it would not appear that it makes much difference. I've tagged energy numbers to the ends of each bullet in your chart and you'll notice that they only range from 63-66 ft. lbs. IMO, not enough difference to matter so I'd probably stay with the heavier bullet so that it would hold onto it's energy for a longer time.

Fiocchi 35-grain XTP HP....... 900 fps, no test barrel length given (63 ft.lbs)
Fiocchi 50-grain FMJ ............800 fps, (65 ft.lbs)
Speer 35-grain GDHP...........900 fps, 2" test barrel (63 ft.lbs)
Winchester 50-grain FMJ......760 fps, no test barrel length given (64 ft.lbs)
Winchester 45-grain Exp. Pt. .815 fps, (66 ft.lbs)
Hornady 35-grain XTP HP......900 fps, 2" test barrel (63 ft.lbs)

For the 40 S&W in my carry gun, the answer would be easier to decide, based on my criteria. For example:

Winchester Ranger 40 S&W 155 Grain JHP (this is actually what I carry)
Muzzle velocity: 1210 fps
Muzzle energy: 502 ft/lb​
Remington Golden Saber Ammunition 40 S&W 165 Grain
Muzzle velocity: 1150 fps
Muzzle energy: 485 ft/lb​
Remington Golden Saber Ammunition 40 S&W 180 Grain
Muzzle velocity: 1015 fps
Muzzle energy: 412 ft/lb​
That's almost a 22% increase in energy and that's the reason I carry 155 or 165 grain bullets instead of the 180s.

Again, this is only my opinion and why I use what I use. YMMV.

Hoss
 
#38 ·
I'd have to agree with cvhoss and would choose the ol' standard 51 grain metal case bullet over the lighter ones if I had to go with .25 ACP. As he says, it doesn't make much difference really. The round is weenie no matter how you serve it up.

I don't place nearly the same importance on bullet expansion as do most here on the Forum. When talking of cartridges such as the .25 ACP the notion of "higher performance" light bullet, expanding ammunition is merely laughable and only extracts extra money that goes into the coffers of the purveyors of such ammunition. The .25 ACP isn't worth worrying over which of its available commercial loadings is most effective because there's probably not a dime's difference in any of them. They're all iffy. I suppose my thoughts are: "go with the 51 grain FMJ to eek out that possible last 1/4 of an inch of penetration that may turn the trick, yielding an outcome in my favor."

Use of the .25 in a self defense situation perhaps more closely resembles the use of a club or one's fists to strike an assailant. While it's debatable whether it's more effective than a club or fist, the .25 ACP could certainly be more conveniently applied and that may be where its usefulness is validated.

I know that I'd rather attack someone who was wielding a club or his fists against me than I would to attack someone armed with a .25. While I realize that I stand a chance of being hurt or even severely injured by clubs or fists there'd be a niggling notion that perhaps that paltry .25 bullet would find its way in to what would be an ultimately fatal wound. As a deterrent, the though of a gunshot wound would matter to MOST ne'r-do-wells. The hard core nut cases or druggies are another thing entirely.
 
#40 ·
Brass bullets

For some reason my muddled brain thinks the solid brass bullet was called the "PPS". Ed Sanow might have had something to do with the design or marketing. Am I close? Does anybody remember? All the Google links are for the Walther PPS.
 
#41 ·
Gentlemen
This is my first post on this fine site. The whole reason I came to this site was a google search on reloading the .25 acp cartridge My children and I have a great love for Ruger Blackhawks in a .357 my sons are 7 years old and 11 years old. The young one Bobby is only comfortable shooting light loads but the older buck Billy loves to shoot Magnum loads and I am very pleased with how both of them shoot, which is first of all very safely and secondly pretty darned accurately. I would be happy to put them against any youngsters their age on a 25 yd. range. That being said we are comfortable shooting large pistols with moderate power. My wife is another story. She is a small woman who has been stricken with a disease that has robed her of her strength and cursed her with arthritis. I bought her an LCP and she cannot shoot it. I loaded her light rounds and she is still extremely uncomfortable shooting it. I ended up with a Beretta 950bs in a trade and like most everyone here I figured that was going to be the next one to go. When she saw it she liked the size and the way it looked and wanted to shoot it. That alone was something that I was not used to, she never wants to shoot because it hurts. well when she shot it she liked it and wanted to shoot some more. She is now very comfortable with her gun, it does not hurt her, she likes it and she is willing to shoot it. That is a long winded way of saying its what we have, its what she likes and its what she can shoot.
the bottom line is it fits in out situation.
Thanks so much for letting me put in my two cents.
billy Firearm Gun Trigger Starting pistol Revolver
 
#42 ·
"That is a long winded way of saying..."

You ain't got nuthin' on me, Billy.

Welcome to the Forum!

From what you are saying it is assumed that she is unable to operate the slide on an automatic pistol much larger than the little Beretta. A heavy steel-framed 9mm is more pleasant to actually fire than most .25 automatics and offers obvious advantages with regards to cartridge effectiveness. It is all for naught though if an inability to operate the pistol denies her it's use.

Still, I wouldn't give good odds to an assailant who messes with an alert and resolute mamma wielding a dependable .25 ACP pistol.
 
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#43 ·
bmcgivray, you are becoming my favorite gun writer, and I put more weight on your tests and conclusions than anyone in the rags. Why, because your tests and conclusions bear witness to my own conclusions based on my experience.
Amazing what you can learn from killing some varmits ain't it?

As for the 25 acp, I'll say this; I have been to places that I could not take a gun that I would have given anything to have a 25 in my pocket, and felt damn comfortable with it.

Here in this country, we have so many better choices of caliber and size efficient guns, that most would probably pick something else. But for what it's worth, I can see it still being a viable choice for a number of special roles and circumstances.
 
#44 ·
I have a Browning .25 that was my Dads. Mom gave it to me after he passed. I also have the original box of ammo which he bought for 10.99. I believe I remember my dad saying the pistol cost him around 50 bucks back around 1970 or so. Could this be true? I would never carry this gun as it is too small for my hand and it is one of my safe queens. My grandson does like to look at the little baby gun in the safe when he visits.
 
#48 ·
Hi bmcgilvray & all,

I recently went on a pocket auto "jag" and wound up with three Beretta .25's: Mods. 20, 950BS, and 418. Carried one a few times as backup to something larger. With all the (admittedly amateur) testing I've done with 200g bullets in .38 S&W and .38 SPL, however, I wound up deciding to stick pretty much with them, especially after I found that a belly band holster conceals a snubbie or my Remington 51 (classic .380) as well or better as an ankle holster did my .25's. Admittedly, a .25 can fit all kinds of other places, but I wound up deciding that I could hide something bigger with just a bit more effort.

I enjoyed shooting those three Berettas, but since $$$ are limited for my shooting hobby, they were sacrificed to help pay for .38's (and a 1911A1 .45 for HD, plus several shotguns). Never shot anything with the .25's except paper, etc., so no experience to offer in terminal ballistics :) In several hundred rounds thru the 3 Berettas, I experienced only one FTF, so no complaints about reliability. The .25 doubtless serves effectively in many cases when a good guy produces one unexpectedly, when a BG has mistaken him for easy pickings. Of course, I suspect its deterrence factor was somewhat higher back in the good ol' days of peritonitis!
 
#50 ·
"...or my Remington 51...'

I've long wanted one of those. Shot one way back when I was young that my uncle had. Great handling and very flat .380 design.
 
#52 ·
I also have the FIE Titan, bought it years ago just for kicks. Never my first choice in pistols to carry, but on occasions have dropped it into my pocket just to have something when a full sized firearm wasn't practical to carry.

The round may be low-powered but it still can kill a person in the right circumstances. Just recently in my hometown, some kid who used to play ball and lift weights with us old dudes at the YMCA used one to kill a guy in an apartment for unapparent reasons. I guess it was the only handgun he could acquire but it was deadly.
 
#53 ·
This was a great read. As for .25s I always remember an account I read of an elderly gentleman who committed suicide with a .25.

He just lost his wife of many years (I don't remember how many). He was despondent and alone so he decided to join her. The account was reconstructed based on evidence at the scene, blood trails etc.

He laid in bed and placed the .25 on his chest and shot himself. He got up, walked to the bathroom and checked the mirror (to see if he really shot himself, I guess). He went back to bed and did the same thing, shot himself and walked to the bathroom mirror and back. He shot himself a third time and put the gun down, folded his hands across his chest, and died an undetermined amount of time later. This was an elderly guy who wanted to die who shot himself at contact distance three times before succumbing to his wounds.

OTOH I knew of a cop who took a .25 through the eye and was dead on scene. YMMV
 
#54 ·
I also have the FIE Titan, bought it years ago just for kicks. Never my first choice in pistols to carry, but on occasions have dropped it into my pocket just to have something when a full sized firearm wasn't practical to carry.
The FIT Titan is my primary carry handgun. After I repaired the slide damage it has never failed me once through hundreds of rounds. Feeds hollowpoints like a champ too.
I've trained with this thing plenty to feel confident if I ever had to use it...hopefully never. Around my parts though stray dogs seem to be more of a threat than criminals.
 
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