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Cartridge Discussion: .25 ACP

152K views 130 replies 85 participants last post by  Pete63 
#1 · (Edited)
How many folks out there are going to admit to having a handgun chambered for the .25 ACP? If ownership of the .25 ACP is admitted then how many have actually carried a handgun so chambered? It’s a cartridge that is frequently criticized as being too unsubstantial for use for serious self-defense yet ammunition is sold each year for this pipsqueak . Somebody’s using it for something.

The .25 ACP is one of our really old semi-auto pistol cartridges. It was introduced in 1905 or 1906, depending on the reference, in the FN Model 1906. Both pistol and cartridge were of Browning design. Once the semi-auto pistol became accepted and came in general use at the beginning of the 20th century, a number of designs in different sizes and chambered for a host of new cartridges were marketed to those who felt the need to possess a handgun for self-defense. The smallest practical sizes marketed were any of several models termed vest pocket pistols. Most of these were designed around the .25 ACP or 6.35 Browning as it is known in Europe. These diminutive pistols occupied about the same space as the smallest one or two shot derringers of the previous century but featured higher ammunition capacity contained in handy magazines that made recharging more convenient. Due to the relatively high velocity of the .25 ACP cartridge, handguns so chambered offered striking effectiveness equal or exceeding many of the low-powered rim fire, pin fire, or center fire pocket pistols marketed in the later decades of the 19th century. A light-weight-for-caliber .22, .25, .30, .32, .38, or at best .41 caliber bullet traveling at 400-500 fps is anemic in the extreme. Many thousands of small semi-auto pistols taking the .25 ACP were sold worldwide over the next 75 years or so. Among the well known brands were some really fine handguns made and sold in .25 ACP including Astra, Beretta, Browning, Colt, FN, Mauser, Ortgies, Sauer, and Walther. These are finely made and exhibit design and craftsmanship fully equal to larger handguns from those firms.

GCA ’68 and a change in tastes caused the popularity of high quality arms chambered for the .25 ACP to wan by the 1970’s. The cartridge became the provenance of the inexpensive semi-auto pistol. It seems that such low quality pistols, with their uneven functional reliability, further tarnished the reputation of the .25 as a serious defensive cartridge. Design advancements in the 1980’s and 1990’s made more powerful cartridges available in pistols almost as small as many .25 pistols. These days there are not a lot of choices out there if one wants to purchase a new .25 pistol.

So, What Can It Do?

For starters the .25 fully possesses the capability to kill a person very dead. It has laid many low in it’s century plus usage. It must be remembered that the .25 pistol is not a toy and absolutely must be given the same respect that any firearm should be accorded.

I’ve toted and used the .25 on occasion and have some notion of its capabilities. Upon considering the Kel Tec P3AT, it’s .380 ACP cartridge, and its overall size compared to my Colt Model 1908 I decided to retire the .25 as a deep concealment handgun and go with the P3AT and its more effective cartridge. Previously I’d slipped the little Colt in my hip pocket behind my wallet if I didn’t think I could contrive to hide anything larger.


The Kel Tec P3AT is scarcely larger than the Colt Model 1908 but offers significantly more punch.

Years ago I saw my first example of .25 ACP effectiveness and it was sorry indeed. I’d left a hunting vest on a tank dam where I’d been dove hunting one afternoon. Before work the next morning I drove out past the edge of town to the pasture to retrieve the vest. I slipped my Beretta Model 1919 .25 ACP behind my wallet and began hiking up a fence row to the stock tank. About 300 yards up the path from the road I suddenly found myself face to face with a coyote which was sitting on it’s haunches in the broom weeds at the edge of the path I was traveling. Pleased to have an opportunity to rid the countryside of one of the varmints I whipped out the .25 pistol and fired full into the center of the coyote’s chest, seeing dust and fur fly where the bullet struck. The distance couldn’t have been more than 5 yards. The coyote whirled and ran off. I’m sure I could ascertain a baleful look in its eye as it turned to run, contemptuous of my ordnance.

Someone once dumped an old washing machine in a gully on our gun club property. I took advantage of the opportunity to fire a few shots into its side with this .25 Beretta. The result was chipped paint and deep puckers. No bullet penetrated the side of the washer. A few more shots with a Smith & Wesson Model 17 .22 Long Rifle revolver penetrated the washer’s side. What was this? The .22 would pierce the sheet metal. I knew the Beretta was old, its bore ravaged by corrosive priming. The rifling was only a shadow in the pitted surfaces of the bore. I speculated that bore condition could be affecting my .25’s effectiveness.

At the next Fort Worth gun show I swapped the Beretta and cash for a Colt Model 1908 .25 that had a sparkling clean bore Since the washer was still at the range I stopped by and fired some more .25 ammo at its side. The shots from the Colt completely penetrated the sheet metal. Moral to the story is: if ya’ pistole ain’t got much horsepower to begin with, be sure it’s in good condition ‘cause you’re gonna need all the help you can get.

One evening my brother-in-law called me to talk handloading and guns. I was walking around in the house on the cell phone while visiting with him and happened to look out our front door. There on the porch sat a feral cat that I’d been gunning for. With no explanation other than “Hang on Bo” I held the phone against my chest with my left hand, fetched the .25, which happened to be nearby, eased the door open a crack, and popped the cat through both shoulders. The bullet exited and made a small, flaked mark in the concrete. The cat launched itself off the porch but immediately keeled over at the edge of the sidewalk in the grass. He’d traveled about 8 feet. He was about 10 feet from the muzzle of the Colt when I fired. Bo exclaimed, “What was that?” I replied that I’d just taken out a cat that was hanging around tormenting Wally, our kids’ new kitten.

I used the Colt .25 to administer a finishing shot to a buck once. I’d hit a buck deer high in the spine on a broadside shot with a .30-30 as he trotted through the edge of some oak woods. He was down but not out so I placed the .25 down close to the back of his head and pressed the trigger. As the shot rang out I observed the spent .25 FMJ bullet roll out of his right nostril onto the leaves, completely undamaged except for the rifling marks. The .25 effectively administered the coup de grace but was completely spent in traversing the deer’s head.

A few armadillos, ‘possums, and a ‘**** that was found beneath our camper on a deer lease have given their all to my .25 ACP and it proved to be effective on these varmints.

A Stinker to Shoot

I’ve owned an Astra Model 1916 (?), a couple of Colt Model 1908 .25 pistols and a Browning Baby since I traded out of that old Beretta. I get a kick out of shooting the diminutive pistols but can’t say I’m good at it. The sights are rudimentary, the triggers are a chore, and there just isn’t much for me to hold onto. The Browning Baby was about as tedious as shooting a .44 Magnum with full power loads because of this. The Colt Model 1908 seems to offer a bit more to hold. All .25 ACP pistols are loud enough to ring one’s ears if hearing protection is not worn. Despite the small pistols’ general unsuitability for use I’ve been know to wile away part of an afternoon trying to shoot distant targets with them for fun. There’s a good-sized mesquite tree at the end of the road leading to the lake cabin that is slightly smaller in diameter than a skinny man. The distance is around 100 yards from the cabin yard. It’s possible but not easy to chip and nick the bark on the tree with .25 bullets. The last time I played at this game I had my best results shooting prone.

Oh the Raw Power!

The traditional factory ballistic figures quoted for the .25 ACP with it’s standard 51 grain full metal jacketed bullet is 760 fps with 64 ft./lbs. of energy. Many shooters consider the .25 ACP to be inferior to the .22 Long Rifle for self defense. This isn't entirely true as may be seen. It’s one thing to fire a .22 Long Rifle from a handgun with a four inch to eight inch barrel yet quite another to fire it from a typical vest pocket pistol with it’s barrel length of perhaps two inches at most. Perspectives change when firing both cartridges from similar handguns. It is said that the .25 ACP feeds more reliably than the longer rimmed .22 Long Rifle. There may be some truth to that statement as my .25 ACP semi-auto pistols have fed and functioned with perfect reliability.

Because some folks are gluttons for punishment, die sets for handloading the .25 are available. Picking out .25 ACP cases from the typical litter of .22 rim fire cases on the ground at the range is enough to make one cross-eyed. Once set up for handloading the tiny components aren’t quite as bad to handle as may be imagined. I handload for the .25 ACP as I must have a low threshold of entertainment. My RCBS Uniflow powder measure can just be adjusted to reliably throw the maximum listed charge of Unique. It won’t go any lower and is easier to set just a little over the maximum listed charge weight for Unique. I’ve only attempted to load Bullseye and Unique in the .25 ACP. I’d assumed that Bullseye would be the best choice but Unique gives higher velocities using maximum published loads. The .25 ACP would have to be the least expensive cartridge of all to handload if one troubled himself to cast bullets for it. I’m just not that dedicated.

The Inevitable tests

My brother-in-law and I recently spent a pleasant afternoon testing the .25 ACP and the .22 Long Rifle in a pair of Berettas he has. These two pistols have barrels of the same length. Below find data from this afternoons tests along with some additional .25 ACP data including handloads.


The two Beretta pistols used in testing.

.25 ACP Factory loads

Remington 51 grain FMJ, MV 789 fps, ME 71 ft./lbs.
Winchester 50 grain FMJ, MV 852 fps, ME 82 ft./lbs.*
Hornady XTP 35 grain hollowpoint MV 1004 fps, ME 78*

.25 ACP Handloads

Remington 51 grain bullet, 1.6 grains Unique, MV 853 fps, ME 82 ft./lbs.
Remington 51 grain bullet, 1.2 grains Bullseye, 728 fps, ME 60 ft./lbs.
Rem. 51 grain bullet, (can't tell-it's a secret) Unique, MV 933 fps, ME 99 ft./lbs.



Selected .22 Long Rifle cartridges fired from a Beretta Model 21A

Remington high-velocity copper plated 40 grain solid (Golden Bullet)*
MV 842 fps, ME 63 ft./lbs.

Remington high-velocity lead 36 grain hollow point*
MV 865 fps, ME 60 ft./lbs.

Winchester high-velocity lead 40 grain solid*
MV 854 fps, ME 65 ft./lbs.

Winchester high-velocity copper plated 36 grain hollow point*
MV 894 fps, ME 64 ft./lbs

A Colt Model 1908 and a Oehler Model 12 chronograph were used except (*) in which a Beretta Model 950 B .25 ACP and a Beretta Model 21A .22 Long Rifle were tested over a Chrony chronograph. Coincidentally, the Winchester factory 50 grain load checked out identically when fired from both the Colt and the Beretta and the Unique handload was only one foot per second faster.


When considering the midget automatics, I'd prefer the .25 ACP to the .22 Long Rife though the difference is so minuscule as to be pointless. The .25 ACP feeds more reliably, the heavier and slightly larger .25 bullet shows equivalent velocities, and the fully jacketed design should deform less and offer more penetration. In tests against the '92 Dodge pickup fender the .25 ACP was noticeably more reliable in penetrating it than was the .22 Long Rifle when fired from the short barreled pistols. Neither was 100% successful in penetrating the fender. Not sure just what this test on the fender proves.

If one is required to utilize the .25 ACP for self-defense the original 51 grain loading looks like the best bet in my view. Lately the standard full metal jacketed bullet is listed as 50 grains. The cartridge will never have the reputation as a stopper. In order for it to do it’s best work it needs to penetrate to a vital organ. The lighter weight, expanding bullets offered by some ammunition manufacturers in an effort to provide “enhanced performance” appear to me to be more likely to fail to adequately penetrate. Some of these are: 40 grain Glazer Safety Slug, 45 grain Winchester Super-X Expanding Point, 35 grain Hornady XTP hollow point, and 35 grain Speer Gold Dot hollow point. The whiz-bang fancy .25 slug that opens up effectively won’t do much good if it opens up in the lining of a winter jacket or perhaps a rib bone or skull, leaving an assailant who is even more agitated. I’ve had no experience with any “high performance” .25 ACP ammunition so am not qualified to say what it would do. What’s more, I don’t intend to purchase a bunch of different brands order to find out what they could do. Penetration would be the first priority when selecting ammunition to carry in these pistols.

If it's all one has in his possession, a .25 ACP pistol chould certainly be pressed into service for defense. It’d be better than nothing. A well-thrown punch generates more foot-pounds of energy but one must close with the adversary in order to land a blow. Since very small pistols are now available in more powerful cartridges there isn't really place for the .25 ACP in one’s self defense arsenal. It’s appeal in the 21st century lies in the collectors' fascination for the finely finished examples of the miniature handguns made in this chambering.

Now if I could only find a nice example of one of those scarce Walther PP’s chambered for .25 ACP…
 
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#87 ·
January 1979 AZ State Prison Florence The Aryan Brotherhood had a family tiff. An inmate armed with a .25 automatic went shooting on the west side of Cell Block 3. Six shots were fired the results four dead two wounded not counting one officer who jumped over the rail to avoid being shot and broke his arm. Another result although I don't choose the .25 auto for self defense I would not be dismissive if somebody pointed one at me.
 
#89 ·
"This is thethread that never ends! It goes on and on my friends! One day, people started typing, not knowing what it was. They just kept typing, because, because, because ... This is the threat that never ends! It ---" :danceban:

Of the two .25s I have been known to tote (I added a 1903 Colt .25 with 5-digit serial # to the armory ... :image035: ), I've found them to be surprisingly accurate. This was from 7 yards with my 1966 Beretta Jetfire.
Gun Revolver Trigger Starting pistol Airsoft gun


Unfortunately, I did the draw-it-rapidly and shot about a round per second, second and a half. Thus, the web o'me hand got bit by the hammer and the next string produced a slightly larger group ... but I watched three rounds in a row go into the big ragged hole here:
Gun Firearm Revolver Trigger Starting pistol


The tiny Colt has a groove in the top of the slide with a teeny bump and notch that serve a sights. This was the best I could manage, shooting two mags from 5 and 7 yards:
Gun Headgear Helmet Personal protective equipment


So, yep, not a bulls-eye match gun, either of them, but they will put the rounds where they need to go (and pretty darn quickly) if you do your part. Insofar as the cut web of the hand, issue, a few thousand draw-cock-ready drills and I seem to have conditioned a better, safter grip for myself. Overcoming the Colt's very right-handed safety (I mostly shoot left handed) was ... interesting ... I love a challenge. :wink:
 
#91 ·
Although my wife and I have 9mm's, .38 Spl's and .380's to choose from, I have an old 1910 Mauser in .25 ACP that my father "borrowed" from a captured German soldier during WWII. Although, it's it rather poor condition, I've replaced springs and it's now a functional handgun. Although it's not my 1st, 2nd or 3rd choice for carry or defense, I keep it ready to go. And despite that my coworkers told me that after I empty the 9 shot mag into the BG, the BG is going to shove it up my azz. I guess I had better throw the empty .25 at the BG since we all know that even SUPERMAN ducks when the BG's throw guns at HIM.
 
#93 ·
Jeff Cooper once said about the .25, If you carry one don't load it, because if you load it you might be tempted to shoot it and if you shoot it you might hit someone and if you hit someone you will make him really angry. That said, I carried a Frasier (stainless copy of the baby Browning) behind the buckle of my Sam Browne as a last ditch oh crap gun.
 
#95 ·
all my buddies like to laugh at all my pocket pistols.. yet none of them want to be shot by one.. My views of the lethality of them changed when my uncle shot himself with one. (long story, was crippled and brain damaged after being hit by a drunk in a F250 powerstroke than ran a stop sign while on his motorcycle)
 
#100 ·
Ok, would you rather have the knife/sword of your choice or the .25? That seems to me kind of like shooting a bear with a sub .454 pistol. You will probably kill the bear, but not before he kills you.

In My Opinion, the smaller calibers (.22, .25, .32, and maybe even .380), as carry pistols, are for close range shooting to the brainpan to stop an attack. Point it between the eyes (COB-Center of Brain). In this role they are as deadly and effective as ANY caliber, and superior to any blade. Teaching center of mass shooting while taking the oblique is incredible useful if someone is trying to shoot you, but it may not be a more common occurrence than an attacker who is trying to rob you and wants to close with his victim to do so. For someone who has the mental faculties and is prepared to shoot COB I find nothing wrong with any of these time tested pocket guns, and if you look at the old FBI statistics you'll find many one shot stops with the .32, which was a very common caliber for women and citizens at those times. The reason's were probably that they were untrained, accustomed to looking at peoples faces when they had their attention, and shot where they looked; in their attackers in the face. Sort of hard to argue that it doesn't work...

Choosing any of those for a gun battle is a little silly, but for defense against an assailant I believe they are entirely appropriate. They're just not going to be a leveler if someone comes after you with a full frame pistol.
 
#101 ·
Ok, would you rather have the knife/sword of your choice or the .25? That seems to me kind of like shooting a bear with a sub .454 pistol. You will probably kill the bear, but not before he kills you.
Maybe -but IIRC someone did better than that with a .45 ACP in a big Park on a huge Alaskan Brown Bear

I'm for and likely always will be for carrying as much gun as possible , because you just Never Know what a day may bring upon you.
 
#102 ·
Speaking of bear guns . . .

While I was stationed in Alaska, a fellow was attacked by a grizzly (not a brownie) near where I was hunting, and all he had was a .357 Magnum. As the bear was trying to chew the guy's head off, the guy fired 5 shots into the bear's head with no effect. He fired the 6th into the bear's mouth, and the bear stood up, shook its head and wandered away. The game wardens searched for the wounded bear afterwards but found no sign of it. The next week I sold my .357 and upgraded to a .41 Magnum, still a minimal choice against big Alaskan bears.
 
#103 ·
Yeah , IF I lived in bear country (grizzly are more rare here than hen's teeth LOL) I'd want at least a .44 mag on me at all times

He fired the 6th into the bear's mouth
I've long held the "theory" that IF attacked by one - I would try to put one through the roof of the mouth right into the brain- don't know IF it's even been tested but I would imagine a 230 grain .45 would do the deed ????
 
#104 ·
Since I consider a 9mm too weak to carry as a primary handgun, no I have never held, shot, or carried a .25 or a .32. No, I would not like to get shot with one. I also would not like to stand in front of a seven year old girl throwing rocks.

I have pocket carried a .380 AP as a pocket BUG, but was very uncomfortable with it. My current pocket BUGs are a SA XDs-45 or a Sig P938 9mm. Carry the largest caliber gun you can control and will carry every day.
 
#130 ·
During the nine years since this post, I sold the SA XDs-45 and still have the Sig P938. I purchased a Colt 1908 Hammerless 25 Vest Pocket manufactured in 1915. I also purchased a Seecamp LWS 380 and an NAA MiniMag 22M. I recently purchased a Springfield Armory Hellcat 9mm for pocket carry.
 
#105 ·
Charlie, if you can pocket carry a 45acp of any size, good for you. I'm glad you can be so adequately armed. Sadly, I cant do that. M-F from 6a-5p I am wearing dockers style khakis or black dress slacks, tucked polo or collared shirt. I'm 5'9" and 215lbs (yeah, its called a beer belly and it sucks) .. I need ABSOLUTE concealment and the upmost discretion in carrying while at work. While it isnt forbidden for me to carry at work, it would make many fellow employees uncomfortable and I am sure there'd be a talk coming.. and I would be inclined to stop carrying.

But being in IT, having to stand or sit right next to people, crawl under desks, crouching, bending, etc.. anything more than a discretely carried so-called "mouse gun" is not acceptable in my case. My dress, body size and shape simply do not allow me to pocket carry, or IWB carry anything larger that I currently own. I suspect something the size of an LC9 might be able to be carried IWB without being a burden or risk exposure... but I dont own one, nor can I afford another gun of any sort at the moment.

Add to this the fact that I have had multiple hand and wrist injuries that make firing larger calibers extremely painful, the size and moderate recoil of the 32acp in my pocket fits me and my perceived need. That is not to say I dont carry a doublestack 9mm loaded with 135gr JHP when I travel to higher risk locations...

Point being, we are fortunate that there are so many choices in calibers and pistols.. since not only does 1 gun not fit all needs for all people, but realistically, 10 guns cant fit all needs for all people either.

Carry on, and be safe.
 
#107 ·
Well said, JasonJ! Well put indeed!
We are all of different sizes, shapes, environments, and needs. I, too am relatively short at not-quite 5'-09" and am a few pounds heavier than you (MOST of it is muscle but my abs have stored a few too many 12-packs to ever show a "six-pack", LOL!). My waist is still smaller than my chest and shoulders, but I'm short so what's "loose" on me shirt-wise hangs to my knees, depending on where I bought it. I, too have hand and wrist issues, but not so bad I can't crank off a few hard-kicking rounds most of the time. When the osteo flares up (or fingers are broken, or some other mishap hath left me with limited use) I am all about my .32s (Walthers, Colt, S&W J-frame ... all very nice, very accurate, very reliable). Today, I was in a location where being armed would be frowned upon. I COULD have badged the guy at the door, but that's crass under the circumstances and I really didn't want anyone to know I was the po-po. So, it was Beretta Jetfire and 2 spare 8-round mags to the rescue. No one even noticed (my wallet makes a bigger print). Not ideal, but better than being down to a pocket knife or small collapsible baton.

For the rest of my running around I threw on my CZ (Vz) 82, but for right then, right there, earlier in the day, that little .25 let me be armed where otherwise there would have been either an uncomfortable discussion or I'd have been without a piece. So long as you know what you and the pistol are capable of, what to expect from the cartridge, you should be okay. Practice, train, learn, and survive. The .25 is just a tool. Perhaps not ideal, but when you need hammer sometimes any hammer will do.
 
#106 ·
In TX we can carry concealed in a vehicle without a Concealed Carry license. I don't have one yet. Since my .25 Jetfire was sitting on the top shelf of my closet doing nothing, I decided it could ride around with me in the car's glovebox, instead. So it's been there a month now (thanks to this .25 ACP thread) and I'm glad to have it. I may one day replace it with something bigger but it's BETTER THAN NOTHING.
 
#108 ·
I have one of these that my Dad carried on a daily basis for about 30 years or so... In fact he had two of them, but I gave one of them to my sister as a memento. When I took it out back last winter, ammo for it was apparently a problem, but I did find a box of Hornady Critical Defense rounds for it, as well as a box of ball. It's put away, replaced in my use by a pocket 9mm, (as well as a Glock), but I still check on it from time to time just for the memories it brings me.
 
#109 ·
A 25 replaced the 22 because John Browning considered the 22 undependable. A 25 was basically made around the 'Baby Browning'. A Seecamp 25 is a dream-gun (safe and dependable).

You can debate the 25 all you want, but it's ideal for a pocket pistol, especially for recoil and the ladies. You can take it to the range and pop off a box. It's not made for full size guns. And a 22 is just too undependable (duds). Is a 44 magnum a better man-stopper? Well maybe, but in an 8 ounce keltec, it might be a 'Handful'.
 
#111 ·
If you going to shoot a 25 auto you need some 150gr JHP zombie bullets of the will over penetrate and kill the dog.
25 auto is what it is a a very small caliber weapon that will do up close if it is what you have.
I own one it is a true pocket carry .
 
#115 ·
But you all are foragetting one imporant fact

First off; The original post is the best on the 25ACP I've ever run across.

After reading EVERY post in this thread, I didn't see much mention of the most important feature about the .25 ACP guns.

They are very cool!

Here is an example of the coolness: Firearm Gun Trigger Revolver Air gun
Gun Trigger Hand Finger Airsoft gun




The Baby Browning is a great backup for that 357 Ruger Bisley as well as the Charter Arms Undercover 38 I regularly carry.

Oh - and by the way - anyone that thinks the 22lr is superior to the .25acp is just plain bad at math. A bigger, heavier, better penetrating bullet traveling at higher velocities wins the contest every time. The most common mistake is thinking that ballistics of a 22LR shot from a rifle or a full-size revolver translate well to a 25 ACP fired from a barrel less than 2 inches long.
 
#116 ·
First off; The original post is the best on the 25ACP I've ever run across.

After reading EVERY post in this thread, I didn't see much mention of the most important feature about the .25 ACP guns.

They are very cool!

Here is an example of the coolness: View attachment 81811 View attachment 81812



The Baby Browning is a great backup for that 357 Ruger Bisly as well as the Charter Arms Undercover 38 I regularly carry.

Oh - and by the way - anyone that thinks the 22lr is superior to the .25acp is just plain bad at math. A bigger, heavier, better penetrating bullet traveling at higher velocities wins the contest every time. The most common mistake is thinking that ballistics of a 22LR shot from a rifle or a full-size revolver translate well to a 25 ACP fired from a barrel less than 2 inches long.
I'd call the most important feature the fact that it's a center fire cartridge rather than rim fired like the .22LR. Someone may have said that... didn't read all the posts of the 5-year-old thread.
 
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#117 ·
Reasons I'm buying a FIE Titan 25acp

Hello, I have had 9mm, and 380's so why did I go to a 25acp ? I use my wheelchair very often for shopping and I carry a decent size spare tire around my waist. Well guess what, the larger guns dig into my side and drive me crazy and the pocket guns are hard to get to. So I'm thinking about carrying the gun differently, Maybe a neck loop, just a vest pocket, or some other way a disabled person can sit and think of for days. Maybe with this steel gun I can sit on it. If you have any ideas let me know please.
Yes I have had the plastic guns and they can do similar things but the steel gun is better to hit them with. I probably won't get in a gunfight in a store and I'm hoping that while traveling down the street the shear idea that I have a gun will deter the bad guy. I have a high voice due to a tumor I grew up with and I make all rough guys I meet smile at me when I tell them "Its a good thing you got out of my way so I don't have to whoop ass". We all laugh and go away with a big smile. So pulling my pistol is the last thing I will ever do at 64 and in a wheelchair. Besides I'm in a real good position to shoot them between the legs Thanks for listening, Gary
 
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