HP expansion v. fps

[CURMUDGEON5]

Does anyone have info/experience about the relative amount of expansion in hollow points at velocities less than the optimum design parameters?
For example; I carry 230gr Golden Sabers in my 3" Colt .45 New Agent, and figuring 45fps-per-inch loss in velocity from the 5" test standard, I would be shooting at 740fps velocity. GS's are designed for maximum expansion at 830fps. So, I guess my question is on a scale of "0" expansion to maximum expansion, what should I expect in a defensive situation?
Thanks for your response.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[crzy4guns]

Remington makes the Golden Saber in a 185 grain weight (+P also) that should provide sufficient velocity for reliable maximum expansion from your Colt New Agent. I always prefer lighter weight bullets for any short barreled pistol because of the very problem you are experiencing with using the 230 grain. Why take a chance on expansion, save the heavy stuff for the longer barreled pistols IMHO.

[bmcgilvray]

I realize that this goes against the grain of conventional wisdom but I think the need for expansion has been oversold in defensive handgun rounds, especially the non-magnum rounds and the moderate velocities at which they operate. It's obvious that folks possess far too much angst over the relative expansion characteristics of their self-protection ammunition choices. Evans and Sanow data aside, a handgun is pretty lame when compared with a rifle or shotgun. Handguns may be conveniently and unobtrusively carried though and can strike effective blows to thwart an assailant.

I'd still go with the 230 grain bullet in the shorter barreled .45 if I was carrying such a handgun. It's already .45 caliber in diameter and the heavyweight bullet offers much in straight line penetration and strikes a heavy blow. If it does happen to expand then great. Good hits to vitals count for far more than what sort of tricks the bullet may or may not perform.

[deadeye72]

It's already .45 caliber in diameter and the heavyweight bullet offers much in straight line penetration and strikes a heavy blow. If it does happen to expand then great. Good hits to vitals count for far more than what sort of tricks the bullet may or may not perform.

Agreed that good hits to vitals is important, but with that I would prefer good expansion. When the bullet performs the way it is intended, all those sharp edges create such a massive wound cavaty (even handguns), that it is more likely to stop the attack faster.

[Zach and Holly]

From what I know, maximum expansion is best in a defensive situation for a few reasons. One, the expansion aids the bullet in actually stopping in the body creating that knock down power we look for. An FMJ would likely go in and out, and while that bullet is still going, it still has a lot of its energy. If the bullet were to stop IN the body, the bullet's entire energy is transfered to the target.

I always imagine an FMJ ball shot at a charging assailant would be like throwing a golf ball sized medicine ball at somebody. It would bounce right off (or go right through as in the bullet) and the BG may not even notice or feel it. A regular sized medicine ball would knock them on their hind end similar to a bullet shot and lodged inside of them.

2 and 3 I'd say expansion reduces the chances of collateral damage as well as ricochet.

[rhinokrk]

Here's an old response from a email I sent to Federal concerning this ammo out of a 3" 1911

>From: "Ives, Ron" <Ron.Ives@ATK.com>
>To: 'K K*************
>Subject: RE: Hydra-Shok JHP
>Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:26:37 -0600
>
>The shortest we have data for is a 3.2 inch Colt
>
>820 ft/sec
>
>13.0 penetration
>
>.675 inch expansion

I've since moved to GoldDots 230gr JHP. IMHO any quality 230 JHP is the only way to go, I don't like the lighter +P ammo due to snappier recoil and slower follow up shots.
YMMV

[Tally XD]

From what I know, maximum expansion is best in a defensive situation for a few reasons. One, the expansion aids the bullet in actually stopping in the body creating that knock down power we look for. An FMJ would likely go in and out, and while that bullet is still going, it still has a lot of its energy. If the bullet were to stop IN the body, the bullet's entire energy is transfered to the target.

2 and 3 I'd say expansion reduces the chances of collateral damage as well as ricochet.

Dont get too hung up on that "knock down" power stuff. It just doesnt happen unless you are shooting something larger than a 50 caliber.

[Rmac58]

Dont get too hung up on that "knock down" power stuff. It just doesnt happen unless you are shooting something larger than a 50 caliber.

I'll agree with this. So I would think expansion after penetration is the key.

[CURMUDGEON5]

I'll agree with this. So I would think expansion after penetration is the key.

Very clever!

[Tally XD]

Very clever!

Funny yeah! But he has a point. Expansion period, is what he meant.

Expansion of a bullet is important for the function of a hollow point, otherwise, its just another FMJ.

There are just to many variable factors that determine how a hollow point acts upon penetration of a target. Muscle density, bone, fat, overall size of the target (thick or thin).

However, I am not an expert, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but I have to say that with very good shot placement it matters not about velocity/expansion issues as much as if the shot is placed elsewhere in non-vital areas.

Remember, hollow points were initially designed, not to do more damage, but to prevent over penetration (or so they say).

As far as energy transfer and knockdown power, it is probably true that a hollow point that stops suddenly inside tissue would transfer all of the rounds energy into the target. Still, to get true knowckdown power, power that literally knocks the target off its feet like it does on TV, would require enough muzzle velocity that the recoil would also have knocked the shooter of his/her feet as well unless it was hard mounted.

[CURMUDGEON5]

Here's an old response from a email I sent to Federal concerning this ammo out of a 3" 1911

>From: "Ives, Ron" <Ron.Ives@ATK.com>
>To: 'K K*************
>Subject: RE: Hydra-Shok JHP
>Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:26:37 -0600
>
>The shortest we have data for is a 3.2 inch Colt
>
>820 ft/sec
>
>13.0 penetration
>
>.675 inch expansion

I've since moved to GoldDots 230gr JHP. IMHO any quality 230 JHP is the only way to go, I don't like the lighter +P ammo due to snappier recoil and slower follow up shots.
YMMV

That's good data from Federal, I'm a little surprised to see 820 fps from a 3.2". That would mean about 920 fps from a 5", which is pretty good for a standard pressure .45 acp cartridge.

[bmcgilvray]

That is pretty good and almost equal to the old military ball specifications from the 5-inch models.