Handgun wounding factors and effectiveness.

This is a discussion on Handgun wounding factors and effectiveness. within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; FBI academy firearms training unit on handgun wounding factors and effectiveness. I figured some here never read it before, very interesting... this same web site ...

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Thread: Handgun wounding factors and effectiveness.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array CR2008's Avatar
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    Handgun wounding factors and effectiveness.

    FBI academy firearms training unit on handgun wounding factors and effectiveness. I figured some here never read it before, very interesting... this same web site has links to articles from medical journals (you could probably use Google to extend search) as well on gun shot wounding effects... I would think it's significantly more factual information than what usually comes from the pen of gun writers and anonymous "expert" internet posters.
    FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness - FirearmsTactical.com

    I notice too often, many people will quote numbers about "% one shot stops" as if those numbers came from a laboratory... considering that the conditions were not consistent (different shooters, different people getting hit in different places, different environments such as darkness or daylight etc), I find it laughable anyone would take such things seriously (but when you look on the internet, the magazines, they do.)

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    Senior Member Array Cthulhu's Avatar
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    I've said it before, there are 3 kinds of lies:

    Lies
    Damn Lies
    Statistics

    The biggest problem is the population samples used for the numbers. You can have a study saying 9mm was only 75% effective, but .41 Mag was 100% effective. Okay, looks good, until you see that the 9mm sample was 100 shootings, and the .41 Mag was only four.

    Gonna shut up before I get into a long rant and get late for work.

    -JT

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    Senior Member Array PaulJ's Avatar
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    A very well written review of available data. And Cthulhu: They do mention that
    There are some well publicized, so called analyses of shooting incidents being promoted, however, they are greatly flawed. Conclusions are reached based on samples so small that they are
    meaningless. The author of one, for example, extols the virtues of his favorite cartridge because he has collected ten cases of one shot stops with it.
    ...
    Probably more people in this country have been killed by .22 rimfires than all
    other calibers combined, which, based on body count, would compel the use of .22ís for self-defense. The
    more important question, which is sadly seldom asked, is what did the individual do when hit?
    ...
    Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit.
    Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those
    individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival
    determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.
    ...
    Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock"
    of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The
    bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid
    bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the
    1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."
    Great read overall.

  5. #4
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    To me, everything has a 'real' value, and a 'hypothetical' value. Take statistics either way but pistols and the ammunition are actually overrated the way I see it. Shot placement is key in all scenarios and even the shotgun isn't the devastating weapon it's sometimes made out to be depending. Never have in your mind the possibility of a "one shot stop" as one's subconscious decisions could mean precious seconds or the wrong decision totally. Keep shooting until there is no doubt left. Don't let peer pressure, cost, or hype dictate what you carry for survival, but whatever you chose to carry--use it effectively for you alone are the biggest factor of the equation.

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    Member Array jackdog's Avatar
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    shot placement and a lot of rounds is the only answer. Shoot until you foe is dead or your out of ammo.
    Jack dog

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    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    Maybe it's just me, but I didn't see any earth shattering revelations in those 19 pages.......

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    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    I've seen/read that article a few times now, and it always leads to the same conclusion. It's basically a report on why all other studies are wrong, and still does not provide any meaningful answer. Hence the conclusion: There is no conclusion.

    Use what you're comfortable with, and if you're going to miss as much as police officers do, make sure you have a reload, or lots of ammo to begin with.

    And I've never been a fan on a 1 shot stop anyway. I'd prefer him to keep standing there so I can put at least a few more rounds in him.

    If he falls down the first time I wing him, I might miss my second shot.(I'm kidding of course, the faster the threat is ended, the better.)
    Last edited by Kerbouchard; May 30th, 2008 at 12:13 PM.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
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    I can't vouch for its veracity, but it makes interesting reading on effectiveness. Terminal ballistics as viewed in a morgue
    Howard
    I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!
    Politically Incorrect Self Defense

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    Senior Member Array CR2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulJ View Post
    Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit.
    Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those
    individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival
    determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.
    If it were not for Hollywood and "expert" gun writers, people would not believe the type of BS out there... all anyone has to do is watch the dash cam videos, robbery videos etc of actual human beings getting hit by handgun bullets... I saw one where a guy was RUNNING AROUND while he was getting hit by a large caliber handgun... if you have energy to run (even for short distances), that same energy could be used to return fire, stab etc. Also, when you read or watch reports of actual shootings, people who get hit in the chest can move quite a distance.

    It really takes a hit to the CNS to turn them "off" reliably.... even the .22LR will drop someone like a wet towel if they get hit right between the eyes... better than a major caliber hitting just muscle.

    Quote Originally Posted by HowardCohodas View Post
    I can't vouch for its veracity, but it makes interesting reading on effectiveness. Terminal ballistics as viewed in a morgue
    I read it, I find this so called results as questionable as the literature about "% stopping power" (The same thing about different shooters, people getting it in different areas, different shooting environments, different rounds... etc... it's the inconsistency that makes these claims nothing more than claims.)

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    VIP Member Array SatCong's Avatar
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    Cool

    If is a big word, now if you been there and done it with some small and big bores with guy high on crap, any way you get the ideal. For me shot placement and bigbore.
    NRA PATRON LIFE
    BROWN WATER NAVY

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    GC
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    I've said it before, there are 3 kinds of lies:

    Lies
    Damn Lies
    Statistics
    Surely you wouldn't lay claim to the great American author Mark Twain's quip about statistics? He has another about a "drunk and the lamp post..." also regarding statistics that is worth reading. Just FYI...

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    On YouTube and elsewhere amongst the internets there is a 90s era news oriented video clip of a protestor in IIRC Nicaragua who is shot at pointblank range by an officer of law enforcement.
    The man was standing amongst a crowd of protesters himself not in specific doing anything but observing, too closely. Next thing you know a big push occurs just off screen and the man gets caught in a mass of fleeing citizens and incoming armed enforcers.
    The man finds himself at what looked to be 2' from the face of an officer with a shotgun and the officer fires directly into the mans chest. He's wearing a white shirt as I recall that in seconds turns crimson on the front.
    The man yells "Aye yay yae! (sp?)", walks two or three steps then staggers two more, and lastly falls to the ground to assumably go into arrest and/or bleed out.

    Had he been armed and determined with a mindset to fight rather than flee he defintiely could have gotten off two or more shots before collapse.
    Shoot to stop with what ever it is you've got and aim for high value targets as based on what you use be it chest with a shotty or the occular cavity be it a .22.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    In general I take anything the FBI says about ballistics with a grain of salt. If it is backed by two or more independent sources I will believe it.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

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    Member Array 1911packer's Avatar
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    For me, carry the largest, hardest-hitting round you can and pray for good shot placement.

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    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911packer View Post
    For me, carry the largest, hardest-hitting round you can and pray for good shot placement.
    For me, carry the largest, hardest-hitting round you can and practice for good shot placement.
    Howard
    I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!
    Politically Incorrect Self Defense

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