Extreme Ammunition - Page 2

Extreme Ammunition

This is a discussion on Extreme Ammunition within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The 85 grain bullet even at that sort of velocity is still only producing an ME of 480 ft lbs. The ammo I used thru ...

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  1. #16
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    The 85 grain bullet even at that sort of velocity is still only producing an ME of 480 ft lbs. The ammo I used thru mine did not chrono that fast either - nearer 1500 fps. It sure could still be useful but FMJ of that sort is possibly going to give some over pentration problems, plus the platform is not everyone's ideal for carry.

    Welcome to the forum BTW
    Chris - P95
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  2. #17
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    Like I said, handgun ammo sux to fight for your life with. But usually, its all ya got, so make the most of it.

    Dan

  3. #18
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    Like I said, handgun ammo sux to fight for your life with. But usually, its all ya got, so make the most of it.
    Its definately better than throwing rocks...

  4. #19
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    Yall's just teasing me ... right ???

  5. #20
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    The necessity to be able to penetrate LEVEL II body armor and below had me select the CZ-52 as one of the weapons I qualified with in a recent CJTC test. I also qualified with the good ol .38 special. I love the dependability of revolvers and circumstances will not dicatate that I carry the CZ52 often, but I can when I know I need to.

    In hard ball, the 7.62 will penetrate LEVEL II and below, in hollow point, it would obviously have very different penetration qualities, but I like having the power of a .357 MAG in a pistol with HK rollers in the slide... easy to handle.

  6. #21
    Member Array NaturalSelection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdsumner
    the projectile only delivers as much punch as you get in the recoil. (physics, equal/opposite action/reaction).
    thats not true at all. in the bullet you have 100% of the energy concentrated into a single, small projectile where as the impact to the shooter is absorbed by the weight of the gun, the buffer spring (on automatics), and porting (where applicable). whatever is left is distributed over the entire surface area of the grip. the felt recoil is not anywhere near equal to the energy that the bullet deposits.

  7. #22
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    Taking that a tad further - using real simple figures - a 150 grain bullet accelerated out of a 10# rifle - yields a 0.2% force to the shooter. Against simplistically - if ME of round was 2,000 ft lbs then the shooter will experience 4.28 ft lbs, distributed over the surface area of the gun butt, and within any recoil system etc.

    Very over-simplified but - gives some measure of what is what and Newton is still a happy camper
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  8. #23
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    thats not true at all. in the bullet you have 100% of the energy concentrated into a single, small projectile where as the impact to the shooter is absorbed by the weight of the gun, the buffer spring (on automatics), and porting (where applicable). whatever is left is distributed over the entire surface area of the grip. the felt recoil is not anywhere near equal to the energy that the bullet deposits.-natural selection

    ok, how is that not correct? The energy is absorbed in different areas of the gun, (spring, breach face, grip), but its still the opposite energy (minus heat). And if what is transferred to the shooter's hands/arms/shoulders is not enough to 'extremely shok' the shooter to the ground, then the projectile is not going to generate enough energy to 'extremely shok' the target to the ground. The pistol is not that great a platform for absorbing recoil.
    In speaking with local leo's, and reading reports of shootings, and my own experiences (shooting cattle carcasses, hogs, feral dogs etc) the biggest flaw in handgun ammo is not expanding. We want to penetrate our target, for sure, but also to distribute energy over a greater area than just the face of the round, - thus the hollow point. Even those that do expand, rarely achieve an 'extremely shocking' result.

    My point in this thread was not to trash anybody's favorite SuperKnockdownHugeTemporaryWoundChannelCreatingSho kwaveBurstingOrganShatteringKevlarPenetrating reverse concave detonating handgun round. It was simply to say that with basically the same technology available to all handgun manufacturers, it would be hard for me to believe that one mfr would create the perfect ammo. And since lots and lots of people survive handgun wounds from service ammo all the time, MY PERSONAL OPINION is that handgun ammo all sux. Some more than others, but in general, as man stoppers (despite what the movies tell us), handgun ammo sux. I concede that I carry a handgun, and keep it loaded with good, quality ammo. I also dont trust the name of the round to keep me alive. I trust my ability to 1) avoid a gunfight
    2) deliver fast, accurate fire to areas of the target that will result in its cessation of hostile activities.
    But I dont trust any ammo to 'shock' anyone to the ground.

    Dan

  9. #24
    Member Array NaturalSelection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdsumner
    ok, how is that not correct? The energy is absorbed in different areas of the gun, (spring, breach face, grip), but its still the opposite energy (minus heat).
    you stated "the projectile only delivers as much punch as you get in the recoil." at the point of ignition the energy on the back of the case is equal to the energy on the projectile, but thats where physics end and real world begins.

    1- the weight of the gun itself absorbs much of the initial shock/energy. hold up a 1/8" thick piece of steel plate and have a buddy throw a baseball at it as hard as he can. try the same thing again, this time holding a 1/2" thick piece of steel plate. the felt impact will be much less on the thicker plate because the weight of the plate absorbed a lot more of the impact energy. this is why given equal cailbers, a lighter gun (such as the s&w scanium alloy series) will always have a greater felt recoil. look at basic ballistics charts from the same manufacturers and youll see that given equal charges, the lighter bullets always deliver more energy. why? the heavier bullets absorb more energy. thats not to suggest that lighter bullets are superior, im only pointing out that the heavier bullets absorb more energy in the same way that the weight of the gun absorbs energy.

    2- the buffer springs (on automatics) absorb even more of the energy. take a non-ported H&K USP in .40 and a non-ported .40 caliber automatic of similar weight from any other manufacturer and fire them side by side. the USP will have noticeably less felt recoil. why? H&Ks recoil system works. what does it consist of? multiple buffer springs.

    3- porting (where applicable) can tame viscious recoil and make it controllable. fire a 4" s&w 500 with and without the porting to see that one for yourself.

    4- the energy that makes it past the weight of the gun, buffer spring, and porting (where applicable) is distributed evenly over a very large surface area (grip, buttstock, etc) minimizing the felt impact to the shooter.


    if what is transferred to the shooter's hands/arms/shoulders is not enough to 'extremely shok' the shooter to the ground, then the projectile is not going to generate enough energy to 'extremely shok' the target to the ground.
    and that in itself is the core of our disagreement. the felt recoil to the shooter is nowhere near the felt shock of the one recieving the bullet. using your argument at face value, the handle of the weapon would penetrate your hand just like the bullet penetrated the target. why doesnt it? because the felt energy of the recoil is only a tiny fraction of felt energy of the bullet.

    nobody is suggesting that there are bullets that will flip a bad guys feet up over his head, and having read this thread a couple times now i dont see where you interpret that statement. the only point im arguing is that the belief of "equal, opposite force" in relation to energy deposited by a bullet compared to the felt recoil to the shooter is simpley false. its an internet wives-tale that ive read time and time again over the years on multiple forums. a falsehood born of an over-simplification of misunderstood physics.


    MY PERSONAL OPINION is that handgun ammo all sux.
    while i would disagree, nobody is arguing that point. since youve brought it up though, no handgun is going to deliver 300 ultra-mag performance, but i completely trust my 230 grain corbon jhp in my springfield to accomplish the same end result should i ever be forced to use it.

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