What's so good about 5.7x28mm?

This is a discussion on What's so good about 5.7x28mm? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Yeah, so much for "it will be unavailable by 2009, huh?" :)...

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Thread: What's so good about 5.7x28mm?

  1. #31
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    Yeah, so much for "it will be unavailable by 2009, huh?" :)
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    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array Kilowatt3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfalcon View Post
    The 5.7 was designed as a NATO replacement for the 9mm, as the 5.56 replaced the 7.52, for all the same reasons; including superior terminal ballistics, which was one of the NATO requirements...
    Did we ever use a 7.52 as a standard issue? I learn something new every day.
    The 5.56 has "superior terminal ballistics" to the 7.62? (or was it 7.52?)

    I'm confused.

    Regards,
    Jim
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  4. #33
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    "The 5.56 has "superior terminal ballistics" to the 7.62?"

    This is news to me.

    The one thing that the 5.7X28 has proven excellent for doing, since this thread was begun four years ago last month, is that the cartridge stirs debate.
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  5. #34
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    Jim

    Sorry for the confusion; typing on a mobile device.

    http://www.bobtuley.com/terminal.htm

    Above is a short comparison of terminal ballistics of the 5.56 and and 7.62

    On with the 5.7...

  6. #35
    New Member Array rfalcon's Avatar
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    Hmm....missing my last post.

    Jim - sorry for the typo - small iphone, large fingers.

    A timeline of the research that went into the selection of the 5.56 and a summary of results:
    The Gun Zone -- A 5.56 X 45mm "Timeline" 1957-1962

    A quick comparison of terminal ballistics between the 5.56 and 7.62:
    http://www.bobtuleu.com/terminal.htm

    Back to the 5.7...

  7. #36
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    The physics of a bullet is often counterintuitive. If it weren't, bigger would always be better, right?

    Is the 5.7x28mm round a miracle cartridge? Honestly, no. It is a different approach based on modern understanding of physics, just as the 9mm was state of the art in 1903 when the Wright brothers started flying airplanes.

    A Five-seveN handgun carries 20 rounds (optional 30) in a very lightweight and reliable package - FAR more dependable than super high velocity rimfires.

    It is not cost-effective. There are plenty of cheap guns out there that can get the job done.

    In terms of ballistics, I'd call it a 9mm that has slightly better body armor penetration and somewhat less propensity for overpenetration. For home defense, 5.7 is a bit more comfortable to have around, unless you live in a castle with stone walls.

    It's probably the easiest effective anti-personnel round to fire. Considering the importance of shot placements and double taps, this is a consideration. A lot of people find the Five-seveN "fun to shoot". This always translates into better accuracy and a less intimidating round to fire. I always wonder why people have more emotional trust in a firearm like a 40SW or 45LC revolver that is a ***** to shoot, but with such a sharp kick, those bullets have gotta be effective. Right?

    Finally, and this is a subjective criteria - the Five-seveN, shooting the 5.7 round through a short pistol barrel, has a deafening report and visibly shoots flames. In some cases of SD the intimidation factor of a firearm can be as effective as the bullets themselves. The Five-seveN can be suppressed, but slowing the 5.7x28mm round is like cutting half the mass out of a 45ACP.

    A $1200 Five-seveN is not twice as good as a $600 9mm Glock. But if flatter trajectories and light, smoother recoil is something you're willing to pay a premium for, you'll be happy with a Five-seveN. The quality of the gun is at least on the level of an H&K.

    Or if you're a diehard Battlestar Galactica fan, there really isn't any other choice

  8. #37
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    It provides a platform for a pistol that is lightweight (not only the polymer pistol but the cartridges themselves), high capacity (20+1), low recoil and high velocity (accuracy) and lethality (boutique varieties exist for max tissue damage and low "over penetration"). It was designed, if I am not mistaken, as a pistol variant to the compact close quarters P90--close to me means home defense as far as the pistol is concerned. As someone who is not an "expert", the practice with this firearm is a joy with its low recoil which means a great deal to me as far as home defense accuracy is concerned.

  9. #38
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    I had the opportunity of firing a Five-Seven handgun two years ago. I will have to admit, it is extremely accurate and controllable. I am unaware of the effectiveness on BG targets. I know, from personal experience, that the 5.7 definitely leaves a gaping hole when exiting a 4" Sweetgum tree at 20 yards.

    I will leave the rest of the testing to the pros as the proof is in the "pudding" and not the ballistic gel.
    A wise man once said: "Bugout bag?..What's that? Is that all the junk you sidewalk commandos plan on humping when the SHTF...I'll grab a Nylon 66, a box of 22s and a poncho liner and in less than a week I will have all of your stuff and everything else that I need for the duration."

  10. #39
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    Regards,
    Jim
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    He that cannot reason is a fool. He that will not is a bigot. He that dare not is a slave. - Andrew Carnegie

  11. #40
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    Its not a very good round. Here is my proof. This thread keeps coming back to alive. First it died in 2008, resurrected in 2012, died again and back alive today. The 5.7x28 can't even keep this thread down. Sorry, I'm just having little fun before I go have my taxes done. Welcome to the forum. I'm neutral on the caliber, I have no experience with it.
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  12. #41
    VIP Member Array Kilowatt3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kismetcapitan View Post
    ...Is the 5.7x28mm round a miracle cartridge? Honestly, no. It is a different approach based on modern understanding of physics...
    Yeh! A small bullet, driven to high velocity. A truly novel concept.

    "Modern understanding of physics"??? There have been no advances in physics in the last 200 years that would have any effect whatsoever on our understanding of the ballistics of small arms ammunition. Around 1905, it was theorized (and later proven) that a bullet at around 10,000,000 (yes, ten million) fps will start to experience some relativistic effects on its mass, but we're not shooting anything that would come close.

    Quote Originally Posted by kismetcapitan View Post
    ...The Five-seveN can be suppressed, but slowing the 5.7x28mm round is like cutting half the mass out of a 45ACP...
    Actually, running a subsonic 5.7x28 is like cutting 90% of the mass out of a .45 ACP.

    Welcome to the forum!
    Regards,
    Jim
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    He that cannot reason is a fool. He that will not is a bigot. He that dare not is a slave. - Andrew Carnegie

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilowatt3 View Post
    Yeh! A small bullet, driven to high velocity. A truly novel concept.

    "Modern understanding of physics"??? There have been no advances in physics in the last 200 years that would have any effect whatsoever on our understanding of the ballistics of small arms ammunition. Around 1905, it was theorized (and later proven) that a bullet at around 10,000,000 (yes, ten million) fps will start to experience some relativistic effects on its mass, but we're not shooting anything that would come close.

    Actually, running a subsonic 5.7x28 is like cutting 90% of the mass out of a .45 ACP.

    Welcome to the forum!
    true, I didn't word that correctly :P The trend in the 20th century has been towards smaller bullets at higher velocities. We replaced the 30-06 with the 5.56mm. Only a matter of time before we would start to rethink pistol ammunition along those same lines. I don't know enough about materials science to know if lightweight handguns capable of 50,000psi pressures could have been mass produced before World War I. So a change in philosophy, or perhaps a post-WWII fad in smaller faster bullets? We had to use flintlocks for a couple centuries before technology developed primers. Maybe the recent trend in faster bullets is due to stronger breeches that are lightweight? (total guess, I don't know this for a fact)

    Thank you for the welcome; I really like the balanced nature of this forum!

  14. #43
    481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilowatt3 View Post
    Yeh! A small bullet, driven to high velocity. A truly novel concept.

    "Modern understanding of physics"??? There have been no advances in physics in the last 200 years that would have any effect whatsoever on our understanding of the ballistics of small arms ammunition. Around 1905, it was theorized (and later proven) that a bullet at around 10,000,000 (yes, ten million) fps will start to experience some relativistic effects on its mass, but we're not shooting anything that would come close.

    Actually, running a subsonic 5.7x28 is like cutting 90% of the mass out of a .45 ACP.

    Welcome to the forum!
    Well, geez, Jim. Try to keep up with us, OK?*

    It's the 5.7's vacuum energy I tell you! Vacuum energy!*

    A modern understanding of quantum field theory is all that is necessary to understand why the 5.7 is a truly modern marvel.*

    Ya see, the 5.7 by virtue of it's high velocity, creates a tremendous vacuum in its wake as it passes through soft tissue resulting in a quantum field effect that produces particle pairs that blink into existence and then annihilate in a time span too short to observe. The "energy dump" arising from these zero point annihilations is why the 5.7, despite its diminutive diameter, is correctly billed as a "giant killer".*






    *Yeah, I couldn't resist the opportunity to engage in a little parody.
    My favorite "gun" book-

    QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION

  15. #44
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    Don't know about quantum physics effects and zero point energy, aside of the info from Stargate SG1 but if the 5.7 does that no wonder every LE agency is using it.

    One thing I've seen is that it might have high velocity but very low momentum. I've see 5.7 bullets turn to powder on steel plates and not drop them on a windy day while 1000 fps 124gr 9mm will drop the plates every time. If we are talking strictly armor penetration, I would think that a 9mm AP round would penetrate better than a 5.7 AP round every time. If using AP rounds the actual wounding effect would be much less than HPs in 9mm or SP and HPs in 5.7 either of which will penetrate armor.

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array Kilowatt3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 481 View Post
    ...It's the 5.7's vacuum energy I tell you! Vacuum energy!*...

    ...Ya see, the 5.7 by virtue of it's high velocity, creates a tremendous vacuum in its wake...
    So you, like a lot of other guys, say that the 5.7 sucks???

    I'm not a big fan of the round, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it sucks.
    Regards,
    Jim
    NRA Life Member

    He that cannot reason is a fool. He that will not is a bigot. He that dare not is a slave. - Andrew Carnegie

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