Would you be willing to give up some of your rights - Page 11

Would you be willing to give up some of your rights

This is a discussion on Would you be willing to give up some of your rights within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I hate to say this, but fairness dictates that I must. You absolutely cannot compare the crime rate in other countries to our own, especially ...

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Thread: Would you be willing to give up some of your rights

  1. #151
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    I hate to say this, but fairness dictates that I must. You absolutely cannot compare the crime rate in other countries to our own, especially using gun control as a guideline in either political direction for a number of different reasons, primarily the US Constitution. No other country has the built-in protections afforded us by the Bill of Rights. No other country is restrained by it's own constitution from trampling the rights of it's citizens or residents in the way ours does. Other countries with low crime rates have draconian criminal justice systems and few restrictions on police. By the way, I'm pretty certain the country to which you refer isn't Sweden but rather Switzerland. However, in both cases, the population demographics significantly contribute to the crime rates, or lack thereof. Draw your own conclusions on that.

    It is the same thing in comparing states in our own country. You can't compare Vermont to Illinois using ONLY the gun issue. You have to toss into the mix the number of poor inner city areas, the racial factors, numbers on welfare, average household incomes, population density per square mile and even the weather. Lots of factors make up that statistic.

    I used to compare the District of Columbia to the city of Alexandria, Virginia which is just across the Potomac River from D.C. The city of Alexandria has a crime rate that is ELEVEN TIMES LOWER THAN DC! But I'd stop there, counting on the number to make my point since I'd also toss into the mix the fact that DC has those draconian gun laws while Alexandria has access to the availability of a Concealed Weapons Permit.

    Problem with that illustration is the demographics of each city. Alexandria is mostly an upscale residential community of roughly equal size to DC but the average home income is quite substantially higher than the district. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.


  2. #152
    Senior Member Array agentmel's Avatar
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    Not only no... "Laws" don't prevent "crimes," they create "crimes." The gov't always wants to take away our liberties to help keep us "safe" from thugs. Most of us politely ignore the fact that our gov't officials are the biggest thugs around.

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  3. #153
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    Would you be willing to produce Id and background check to buy ammo?
    WHY would anyone in their right mind be willing to do this? Its one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  4. #154
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    Many of those who sacrificed their lives defending our freedom forfeit not only their lives (the greatest liberty) out of duty for wars they don't believe in, but also personal liberties as a member of the armred services. So your logic makes them traitors..
    This is a blatant distortion of what I said.
    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    ABSOLUTELY NOT As far as i am concerned anyone one who would forfeit our rights is a traitor. A disgrace to all those who have sacrificed their lives defending our freedom
    There is a huge difference between an individual that agrees to sacrifice some of their personal liberties and rights in order to serve the greater good and to those who would forfeit our (collective) rights. Your strawman argument is a needless attack and insult. Please do not repeat the lie to imply that by any reasoning I would call those that serve our nation, traitors. Nothing I said be can be interpreted to mean what you said except through twisted deceptive and distorted rationalization. Your insult pretty much discredits your reasoning across the board. Obviously you will say anything to validate your argument.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  5. #155
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    I hate to say this, but fairness dictates that I must. You absolutely cannot compare the crime rate in other countries to our own, especially using gun control as a guideline in either political direction for a number of different reasons, primarily the US Constitution. No other country has the built-in protections afforded us by the Bill of Rights. No other country is restrained by it's own constitution from trampling the rights of it's citizens or residents in the way ours does. Other countries with low crime rates have draconian criminal justice systems and few restrictions on police. By the way, I'm pretty certain the country to which you refer isn't Sweden but rather Switzerland. However, in both cases, the population demographics significantly contribute to the crime rates, or lack thereof. Draw your own conclusions on that.

    It is the same thing in comparing states in our own country. You can't compare Vermont to Illinois using ONLY the gun issue. You have to toss into the mix the number of poor inner city areas, the racial factors, numbers on welfare, average household incomes, population density per square mile and even the weather. Lots of factors make up that statistic.

    I used to compare the District of Columbia to the city of Alexandria, Virginia which is just across the Potomac River from D.C. The city of Alexandria has a crime rate that is ELEVEN TIMES LOWER THAN DC! But I'd stop there, counting on the number to make my point since I'd also toss into the mix the fact that DC has those draconian gun laws while Alexandria has access to the availability of a Concealed Weapons Permit.

    Problem with that illustration is the demographics of each city. Alexandria is mostly an upscale residential community of roughly equal size to DC but the average home income is quite substantially higher than the district. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
    You are right corrected it changed Sweden to Switzerland. I also agree that the disparity between Alexandria and Washington DC could make for an unbalanced comparison. Relatively small populations with rather large socio economic and cultural differences Unfortunately, from than on we disagree.

    You are right there are some demographics differences between Switzerland and the US. The major one being the larger percentage of non-whites in the US compared to Switzerland. I am sure you are not saying that just because we have a greater percentage of blacks that our crime rate is higher. Beyond that socio economically and politically the US and Switzerland are very similar. Switzerland's criminal justice system though different than ours can not be called draconian by any reasonable measure. If I am correct they too are based on English rule of law. If anything it is far more tolerant than ours in that they do not view many of the things that are illegal in the US as crimes. Yet their definition for violent crimes are similar to ours, which I believe is pretty much universal in developed nations. A fair comparison to the US as a whole or any state in the Union, as any other nation can be. Vermont is a whole state and is not significantly different from other most states in the Union. The measurable difference between Vermont and the rest of the Nation is that it has no gun control to speak and the fact that it is the safest state in the Union. Just as the only real measurable difference between Switzerland and the USA or any of its states is that it too has no gun control to speak and that it has a lower rate of violent crime than we do.

    That there may be other factors that contribute their lower rate of violent crime is possible, even probable. But when compared to the rest of this nations violent crime rate per capita before gun control laws and violent crime rate post gun control laws. It is apparent that the absence of gun control laws results in less violence.

    What validates that the most is that there zero evidence that any gun control measure has ever stopped a crime. After millions probably billions of dollars spent on registration, certification, back ground checks, licenses, permits (how do you permit a right?) and whole slew of other gun control measures there should be some evidence that they have stopped at least one crime, stopped one rape, stopped one assault, stopped murder or robbery. Something. But there is none. Why is that?

    There is however lots of evidence of how registration, certification, back ground checks, licenses, permits has resulted in a thousands of assaults, murders, rapes and robberies. Think about that thousands have been raped, robbed, assaulted and murdered BECAUSE of Gun Control laws. But no one crime prevented by gun control laws
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  6. #156
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    There is however lots of evidence of how registration, certification, back ground checks, licenses, permits has resulted in a thousands of assaults, murders, rapes and robberies.
    I don't want to get into a long heated discussion [this time ] but what evidence is there that registration, certification, background checks and permits have resulted in a thousands of assaults, murders, rapes and robberies? Or even one?

    It may be inconvenient and unnecessary but those hurdles are easily cleared by anyone who actually wants to protect himself.

  7. #157
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    I don't want to get into a long heated discussion [this time ] but what evidence is there that registration, certification, background checks and permits have resulted in a thousands of assaults, murders, rapes and robberies? Or even one?

    It may be inconvenient and unnecessary but those hurdles are easily cleared by anyone who actually wants to protect himself.
    Your last statement is absolutely wrong. I have already shown you one example of my friend who got gunned down waiting for her background check to clear. Even though she has a Order of Protection against her stalker.

    Would it change your mind about gun control if I took the time to show you that is NOT an exaggeration? Would you fight to abolish gun control if you knew for a fact that gun control, registration, certification, background checks and permits, causes thousands of law abiding citizens to be killed and injured?
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  8. #158
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    Your last statement is absolutely wrong. I have already shown you one example of my friend who got gunned down waiting for her background check to clear. Even though she has a Order of Protection against her stalker.

    Would it change your mind about gun control if I took the time to show you that is NOT an exaggeration? Would you fight to abolish gun control if you knew for a fact that gun control, registration, certification, background checks and permits, causes thousands of law abiding citizens to be killed and injured?
    Background checks in Arizona take five minutes.

    You seem to think I am for gun control. I am not. I support legislation that enables me to protect myself. The biggest problem in Arizona is that we cannot carry in restaurants. We have legislators working on the problem because that is the ONLY way restauant carry will not be illegal here. The blanket statements of allowing everyone (even convicted felons and the mentally deficient) access to guns does not help our cause. The only way we will succeed is to make convincing arguments and take small bites at a time. We must convince our neighbors and our representatives. All or nothing might be idealogically satisfying but it really does not help.

    My condolences for your friend's death.

  9. #159
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    Rebecca Griego had a Order of Protection against her stalker she had moved repeatedly changed her phone number refused to answer the phone at work. The police knew she was at risk. Her work security knew she was being stalked and had death threats made against her. She had applied for a Concealed Weapons permit and was told there would be a six to eight week wait. She had gone in to purchase a handgun and told there would be a five day wait until her background check cleared. She was gunned down three days later.

    Her story is by no means unusual. I know of more than a few women that had been raped/assaulted waiting for a permit. Others who have been assaulted and/or raped because they were in a gun free zone and so not allowed to carry a gun. Just as it is not uncommon to find stories of business men shop owners who have applied for gun permits and either due to the delay or out right being denied a permit mostly in states like NY CA and ILL that later have been robbed assaulted or killed

    Here are a couple of the most obvious examples.

    Who knows how many were killed, assaulted and raped because of the gun grab from those left in New Orleans after Katrina. More than a few as dozen reported having to fight off looters. Who know what happened after their guns were taken away

    Watts Riots. During the Watts riots gun shops were over overwhelmed by people wanting to buy guns to protect themselves and their property only to be told there was a 15-day waiting period before they could pick up their firearms. By the time the riot subsided, 34 people had been killed, 1032 injured, billions of dollars of property was damage or destroyed

    Rodney King riot. Once again LA residents learned that due to their gun control laws they would be unable to buy any guns to defend themselves with over 50 killed, and over 4 thousand were assaulted.

    Even excluding the thousands victimized during those two events. I know personally at least half a dozen women victimized while waiting to get their gun or for their permits to clear. It safe to assume Nation wide over the past few decades of gun control that it has happened to thousands. Just as it is not uncommon to find other stories of those that have been robbed or killed while waiting to get their guns or for their permits to clear. If anything my statement about the real life cost of gun control is an understatement.

    No can anyone find a single story of a Gun Control law saving a life or stopping a crime?
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  10. #160
    Member Array jhfox462's Avatar
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    NO! to the orginal question.
    Benjamin Franklin once said, "he that would supplant a little liberty for a little safety deserves neither".

  11. #161
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    Over two weeks since I responded to a question with examples of how gun control laws cost lives and asked if anyone had evidence of a gun control law stopping a crime or saving a life. Without a single response. I think it is safe to say because there are none. So we know that gun control laws back ground checks etc get people killed. We know they DO NOT stop crime or save lives. So why do you support any gun control laws? and I know a good 50% plus do support gun control measures of one kind or another.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  12. #162
    Member Array michael t's Avatar
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    No no no no no no never give up your rights!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
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  13. #163
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    NO. Too many felons have guns, and good ones, already. Let's face it, we work hard for the money we spend buying our ammo and guns. It takes us (at least me) a long time to put together the money for our guns and ammo. They sell some crack in a corner and within a couple of hours can buy enough to fill a closet. The unreputable pawn shops and gun dealers that sell to these POS are the ones that need to be shot. This is off topic but tell me why, our USA weapons manufacturers took the IED crude design and improved it with better explosives, high tech armor piercing metal projectiles and a flawless remote control and detonator? WTH?
    Last edited by henryher; October 6th, 2008 at 02:53 AM. Reason: Spelling
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  14. #164
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    Making ammo only purchasable with a permit is going to cause one of two things.

    People who make fake permits for other things, suddenly have a new item to sell!

    People who sell guns, can now sell ammo too! For increased profit!

    Plenty of things are legal, or illegal in this country. The only thing that changes between legal/illegal is where you purchase it from. There are felons, and other people who cannot own handguns, so they simply purchase it from someone illegally selling them.

    Ammo would end up just being the same way. It would be another item people could sell for profit, illegally.

    In all honesty, I don't know how many gangsters/criminals that walk into a gun-store get on videotape buying ammo. They probably already get most of their ammo from the same weapons-dealer. And who knows how he gets it...

    Heck, the weapons-dealer might even be a legal citizen, with a permit to purchase ammo...

    This idea would change nothing.

  15. #165
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    No!
    Fugettaboutit!
    "There is no such thing as too much ammo. Unless you're swimming!"

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