Would you be willing to give up some of your rights - Page 7

Would you be willing to give up some of your rights

This is a discussion on Would you be willing to give up some of your rights within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by HotGuns Modifying a habit, or a law, or even your thought process dosent really affect how they act or even think because ...

View Poll Results: Would you be willing to produce Id and background check to buy ammo?

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  • Yes, if it would help hinder BG from buying ammo

    16 5.73%
  • NO, I donít want the Government to know when I buy ammo

    263 94.27%
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  1. #91
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Modifying a habit, or a law, or even your thought process dosent really affect how they act or even think because they just dont care.
    I think it has been shown that counties (locations) that have open carry / easy to aquire CCW have reduced crime rates. Normally the crime carries over into neighboring locations.

    In addition, where there are prohibitions to reasonable SD access to firearms, crime rates tend to be high, and the criminals use force (not always a fire arm, but a knife, etc).

    The criminal does change their habits based on their prey.

    Sometimes for the worse. Like the increase in carjacking once transponder ign arrived. At a point, the reward is greater than the risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Knee jerk reactions are pretty much the domain of anti gun crowds...
    Agree. But the same is true for pro-gun.


  2. #92
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    I think it has been shown that counties (locations) that have open carry / easy to aquire CCW have reduced crime rates. Normally the crime carries over into neighboring locations.
    Reduced violent crime rates. Crimes against people go down and usaully the non violent crimes like burglary or theft go up in a corresponding manner.

    In addition, where there are prohibitions to reasonable SD access to firearms, crime rates tend to be high, and the criminals use force (not always a fire arm, but a knife, etc).
    Sure it does. All we have to do is look at D.C, Chicago or NYC. The crooks there know that they can get away with anything. Trying the same thing in most other states would contribute to a very short career in crime.


    The criminal does change their habits based on their prey.
    I agree. They profile their victims. They prey on the weak, the infirm, people in Condition White.

    Even they arent stupid enough to take on someone that they think might be packing a gun. Occasionaly one makes a wrong assumption and gets to meet his Creator.

    Agree. But the same is true for pro-gun.
    Nah.
    I'm still failing to see how not being willing to give something up for nothing is a knee jerk reaction.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  3. #93
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    An ammo permit would not "have to" increase costs.

    There is a national endowment of the arts. There could be a requirement in a ammo permit law to create a national endowment of the 2nd amendment. Funding could go toward 12th grade citizen firearm training. Better practice, because your scores will go on your record (and you might not get into that college you want without a good score Sally).

    Now that we have solved ammo concerns by making a permit for ammo, lets add tax breaks to pay for the permit holder's weekly range time. In addition, since you would need a permit for the firearm, ccw, and ammo...might as well create a national ccw permit for law abiding citizens. Valid in lower 48 + 1, I would say 50 but GL with HI, and I'm sure AK would not be that hard of a fight. Not fair to make someone pay for all the back ground checks. The only solution is a national ccw permit.

    Make ammo tax free. If they say no to that, make ammo yearly annual purchases under $1,200 tax free. My .357 SIG eats dollars like a dependant eats mac and cheese.

    Pro-gun often assumes we will get nothing for something. I think there are a lot of options we can counter with.

  4. #94
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    An ammo permit would not "have to" increase costs.
    Wrong.
    How many permits are out there that don't require at least an administration fee?

    I cant think of one permit for anything that is free. And even if it was free, at first, how long would it last until someone decided that it could be a source of revenue for something?
    It just doesn't work that way.

    There is a national endowment of the arts.
    Yeah I've heard of that. Federal funding for gay porn that is displayed as freedom of speech.

    Pro-gun always assumes we will get nothing for something. I think there are a lot of options we can counter with.
    I am still waiting for you to show me a viable option and convince me that we should take a step backwards to make it harder for the bad-guys.

    Show me an advantage to what you propose. An advantage to me, not the bad guys.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  5. #95
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    What will the antis think of next. I as well as most of y'all here who posses a CCW have already been through the back ground checks. First it's for loaded ammo, Then It's for reloading components, then come the tax increases ,and more fees. I agree with HotGuns. How about something to benefit us for a change. CCW folks are the most law abiding folks around. Thats why we were able to get the permits in the first place. Just aonther ploy to get to us. If we can't get the guns lets get the ammo price it sky high and lets see who is buying it.
    Big Brother needs to BUTT OUT. There i feel better now . I have got my rant for the day out of my system now. I have'nt posted fro a while, So Hi gang.
    A armed person is a citizen-An unarmed person is a future victim.

  6. #96
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paknheat View Post
    ...most of y'all here who posses a CCW have already been through the back ground checks.
    In my state, as a CCW holder, I do not need a permit to purchase a handgun. My CCW is my permit. I do need to register the gun. For got how long. Think 10 days. I just do it next day.

    Same would be true for an ammo permit. No need if you had a CCW. No background / permit cost to curent CCW holders.

  7. #97
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    How many permits are out there that don't require at least an administration fee?
    I would assume as a CCW permit holder there would not be any additional administration fees beyond what you already pay for the CCW.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    ...how long would it last until someone decided that it could be a source of revenue for something?
    Why any law that should be passed would require a limitation on how long the law would be in effect with out renewal / confidence vote. It would state that permit costs would not be increased during that period.

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    I am still waiting for you to show me a viable option and convince me that we should take a step backwards to make it harder for the bad-guys.

    Show me an advantage to what you propose. An advantage to me, not the bad guys.
    I don't know what your "ya thats worth it" option is, I'm just saying, there is a lot we can gain if we give (and it just might be reasonable). I just want that possibility to be part of the thought process.

    There are a large list of words that we pro-gun say all day long that makes the haters go crazy. In comparison "Gun-regulations" is a trigger (no pun) word for the pro-gun crowd. Maybe you think for good reason, I understand.

    What I believe, and I know I'm a huge minority on this site, is that both the pro-gun and the anti-gun people have valid concerns that do need solutions. Anti-gun tend to be more concerned about the now (both a good and bad thing). Pro-gun tends to have a sense or self-responsibility and history.
    Last edited by Thanis; August 20th, 2008 at 09:35 PM.

  8. #98
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Excellent.

    Quote:
    Now I'm no authority, but if the only option you have to provide is as many guns and ammo a person can carry, I don't agree.

    Where has any one mentioned that? Certainly not in this thread.
    So what limitations / restrictions should there be.

    What restriction should be placed on a law abiding citizen beyond being able purchase and carry as many guns and ammo as they can and want?

  9. #99
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    So what limitations / restrictions should there be.

    What restriction should be placed on a law abiding citizen beyond being able purchase and carry as many guns and ammo as they can and want?
    I am in Arkansas. I can walk into a gun store, put out the cash and walk out with my gun. I can take it home, load it up and fire it in my yard while drinking sweet tea. Same with ammo, even though I don't buy ammo other than .22.

    There is no registration of guns, nothing to impede me from buying all the ammo that I want.

    That is as it should be.

    Why should there be any restrictions or limitations on what I buy? I have never committed a crime and in this country, in most places anyway, you are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

    So that you understand where I am coming from, I happen to own lots and lots of guns. I think I am still in double digits. That includes several AR's, AK's,SKS and every manner of so called "black gun" that you can imagine. I also have a couple of .50 BMG's, numerous revolvers and pistols. I reload for all them. I cast bullets for most of them.

    Guess what. None of them are registered, I don't need or want permission from the government whether local or federal to tell me what I can or cant own, or to tell me how much ammo I can own.

    As a matter of fact, I shoot more ammo in a years time than alot of small police departments do as a total.

    Nothing you have said or proposed has want to make me change the way I do business.

    You talk of giving something up to appease the anti-gunners. We have been doing that for the last 40 years and what has it gotten us?

    Let me give you another perspective. I am a CHL instructor. I have been averaging 50 students per class. In March I had 80. I am not doing this myself, I have several other Instructors do different segments of the class to break up the monotony. We have been doing 1 class a month, and it has been filling up and we have been turning students away and referring them to the next class.

    You are proposing that we "give up" to the ant's by voluntarily imposing a permit, or a fee of some sort, or a limit on ammo at a time when the Democrats have figured out that they had better be quiet about being anti-gun until at least after the next election, because they got their tails handed to them in the last two by Republicans that supported the right to bear arms while many of them opposed it.

    There are now 47 states that have some sort of system for concealed weapons. Most of those are shall issue states,meaning that they don't have to jump through hoops, donate to a campaign, or kiss the tail of the Mayor or local Police Chief. You don't have to be related to anyone, you don't have to be a prominent member of society, all you have to do is have a clean record and submit your fee. In the may issue states, you are at the mercy or whim of who ever issues the permits. They don't care that your life may be in jeopardy or what ever reason you may have, in those states you are little more than a second class citizen.

    In this state, as well as several other states here in the south, business has never been better. More and more people are getting permits to tote, more are becoming aware. The more they become aware, the more that they see some of the ridiculous laws, some of which make no sense at all, and they wonder what good they do, and they finally understand that most of them have no real bearing or reason or rationale for being passed other than it was the popular thing to do for some Senator or Congressmen so that he could get some air time and those that voted for them could see their smiling faces on TV.

    In the last 15 years, we have been making great strides in regaining much of what was lost. We have the momentum, the tide rolls in our favor. The handgun business, especially the defensive part of it is thriving, we have new handguns being made specifically for self defense hitting the shelves all the time.

    The ball is in our court and we are winning the game.

    Why should I be willing to give up the advantage by limiting what I can do just to appease someone that doesn't understand or could care less?
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  10. #100
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    The only proper answer to any question that begins "Would you be willing to give up your rights..." is not just no, but HECK NO!

    (OK, normally, I wouldn't use "Heck"...but, family site and all, you know).

    Anyone remember Franklins quote about what one deserves when they trade liberty for safety?
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  11. #101
    Senior Member Array KenInColo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    No. Considering the background check did not stop them from obtaining the gun in the first place, what would make you think it would stop them from obtaining ammo?
    +1 Duuuhhh?
    An armed populace are called citizens.
    An unarmed populace are called subjects.

  12. #102
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    You talk of giving something up to appease the anti-gunners. We have been doing that for the last 40 years and what has it gotten us? ... Why should I be willing to give up the advantage by limiting what I can do just to appease someone that doesn't understand or could care less?
    I think you and I live in different environments. In all fairness, I have not considered that what you consider restrictive, in my neck of the woods, would be less restrictive. Not saying MI has all that bad of gun laws compared to say IL, but I'm in a different part of the world than you.

    Blanket statements on how all restricts should be dropped in my neck of the woods is just not realistic. For you, it is what you already have, what would you gain. In addition there is a different level and type of crime here when compared to there.

    I had not considered this.

    I still believe there is a knee-jerk reaction that pro-gun has to "gun restrictions." This reaction causes ripples in your world, waves in mine.

  13. #103
    Senior Member Array Free American's Avatar
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    Well, technically you do need ID to buy ammo. Have to prove your age. However, a background check??? NO! Far more people are killed every day with cars. There is no waiting period, no background check. The right to convenient transportation is not guaranteed in the Constituion, the right to keep and bear arms is. Underage and drunk individuals improperly and dangerously drive all the time. Would you be willing to produce your drivers license and perform a breathalyzer every time you get gas?

    The whole idea speaks of elitism and government nannyism. The only way this idea could be worse is if the question was:

    "Would you be willing to produce id and perform a background check when buying ammo? It's for the common good."

    Papers please.
    They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


    Previously known as "cjm5874"

  14. #104
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    common good my rear-end. they get my name when i guy the gun.
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  15. #105
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    "Controlling" ammo is retarded! I reload...so how would Criminals be prevented from reloading their own? Rediculous! Punish the criminals with a huge penalty for miss-using guns people!
    I am sworn to protect the Constitution of the U.S.A. from all threats both foreign and domestic.

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