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Would you be willing to produce Id and background check to buy ammo?

  • Yes, if it would help hinder BG from buying ammo

    Votes: 16 5.7%
  • NO, I don’t want the Government to know when I buy ammo

    Votes: 263 94.3%

Would you be willing to give up some of your rights

13K views 165 replies 66 participants last post by  Guns and more 
#1 ·
New findings from FBI about cop attackers and their weapons

This article came up in a thread regarding what type of bullets BG us. Very interesting read, and freighting to know BG are not only carrying quality handguns but are also being trained by ex-military, and practice more than most LEO's.


My question is this: In an effort to make it hard for convicted felons to purchase ammo, would you be willing to give up some of your rights to allow the Government to require ID and a background check prior to buying ammo?
 
#72 ·
This whole "would you give up some rights to keep crooks from doing something" is a very naive and flawed thought process.

The thugs sit back and do as they please, they don't adhere to any laws other than the ones that work to their advantage.

The politicians out there use our "fear" and our need to feel safe against us. They introduce legislation that does nothing to impede bad guys, but it does impede us, the good guys in some small way. We give a little for this, and we give a little for that and eventually we have nothing left to give and we become no different than any other country in the world.

Heres is a classic example of 'feel good" legislations that was passed by Congressman and Senators that are hostile to this country. The "Assault Weapons Bill". Here was a bill that banned a whole lot of guns because of the way they looked. It wasn't because they were an issue, even the FBI and the DOJ statistics admitted that they were actually involved in less than 1 % of all crimes. What it do for crime? Not a thing because the crimes that were committed with them were statistically irrelevant. What did they do for us the good guys?

All of a sudden AK's that could be had all day long for 249 bucks were going for 800-1000 dollars. Magazines that held more than 10 rounds that went for 8-10 bucks a piece started going for 50-60 bucks. Who benefited from that?

The useful idiots did much to advance the cause without realizing it. Like always, those that excel in ignorance were seen everywhere, at news conferences, on TV, on radio talk shows, behind pulpits and even in the White House trying to convince us that is was for our own good. Most of them couldn't even have an intelligent conversation or use accurate facts about what they were talking about. The standard so called "Assault Weapon" was made out to be a machine gun that anyone with the money could buy. Most of these fools had no idea that in many states you could legally own machine guns with the proper paperwork.

People all over the country were saying that if it made the world a safer place to live that they would willing give up a little freedom. They didn't realize then and they don't realize today, that when you give a little today to seemingly solve a problem, and you give some more tomorrow to solve a different problem eventually there is nothing left to offer to solve another problem with out understanding that there will always be a problem, there will always be a crisis of some sort, there will always be a reason, imagined or not and with that the people will be asked to willingly give a little to help solve the problem.

Its all a bunch of crap. I believe that most that frequent this board realize that, but there are a few here that would willingly give up something precious for nothing in return.

I for one, am tired of it. I suppose its a reflection of the present rate of moral, spiritual and even physical decline that we are seeing in this nation today. Critical thinking skills are becoming non existent, what used to common sense is very uncommon, what used to be simple is becoming more complicated for most to grasp. It would seem to me that the implosion of this once great nation continues on at an accelerated pace with each passing day.
 
#76 ·
It would seem to me that the implosion of this once great nation continues on at an accelerated pace with each passing day.
Since 1780s, from George Washington to George Bush, I can point out several examples where many people felt the Republic was bad and getting worse and would soon fail.

The reason you feel the country is imploding, there might be a id check for ammo. Those who disagree are commies, short sighted, emotional, etc. The anti-gun crowd thinks about you the same way.

Everyone points out the failure of the assault weapon ban. Typical line of thought, compromised by traitors. In the end, the ban is lifted, and harsher laws were prevented. You think the anti-gun crowd consider the now ended ban a victory?

Again, I'm not saying ammo id is the only solution. Just the knee jerk, end of the world, going to lose our guns reaction. Is this all the pro-gun crowd has to offer to the national conversation?
 
#73 ·
I don't really belive BGs buy ammo at Walmart. They either steal it (punks) or buy it by the case from Blackmarket Sources (terrorists and professionals.) Gun laws do nothing but hinder honest citizens, they have no effect whatsoever on BGs. ( And I am pretty much a Law and Order guy!)
 
#79 ·
The reason you feel the country is imploding, there might be a id check for ammo. Those who disagree are commies, short sighted, emotional, etc. The anti-gun crowd thinks about you the same way.
Well, not quite.
The willingness to give up something for nothing is a symptom of all of the above, not the sole reason. As for the "commies", some of them actually are,"short sighted", defiantly, "emotional,"absolutely,and as for what the anti gunners think of me, well, if they only knew, they would just quit and go home. You see, while most anti-gunners wring their hands and quiver in their boots and figure out how they are going to throttle people like me back, I am out teaching and education some of their own and turning them into what they consider traitors. I am in fact their worst enemy. I am one of those that offer the red pill or the blue pill. Believe it or not, with some education and what often takes a life changing event to see the error of their ways, many often choose to wake up and become responsible for their actions, and they quit worrying about what some one else does or thinks. Its a miraculous transformation sometimes. Others, like some here, will get a permit, and straddle the fence for awhile, sometimes going this way with the wind, or that way, never really knowing which direction to head in and even argue from a liberal thought process without even realizing it. That's OK, some people are a bit slower than others and it takes them a bit longer to understand, but eventually it will happen. It just takes time and hanging out on boards like this can actually help speed up the process.

Imploding? You bet.
Its nothing new though. The erosion of rights, of trading freedom for safety, rampant immorality, unchecked immigration, education that is meaningless, history that has been rewritten to match a modern agenda,of disarming the population bit by bit every bit of it, its all happened before. Every great civilization in the world, civilizations that were too strong to be taken, eventually collapsed from within.

But you knew that right? I'm sure you learned it all in school.
 
#83 ·
"...responsibility is the price that we pay for the great gift of freedom."
(or something like that from Thomas Aquinas).

But you knew that right? I'm sure you learned it all in school.
I went to school, I read, I try to think beyond the talking points of political parties.

This forum is about ammo, not the greatest problems of our country.

IMO our country has been on the road to ruin while at the door of opportunity since 1780's. The problems remain the same. Our problems have little to do with the lack of rights, it is the lack of willingness to do something of value with those rights while at the same time people are unwilling to consider an authority (be it God, society, or country) beyond their own point of view.

Call it fence riding if you want, but if there truely is a problem with BG buying ammo retail, I will not knee jerk. I want to hear the issues and try to come to a reasonable solution. Now I'm no authority, but if the only option you have to provide is as many guns and ammo a person can carry, I don't agree.

Responsibility and freedom.
 
#80 ·
Is this all the pro-gun crowd has to offer to the national conversation?
Oh.. one more thing.
I've actually participated in some of the "national conversation" in various capacity's. Theres is nothing "national" about it. Nationalism is dying. Its all about Globalism now. Fact, the Globalist don't want you owning guns. Period.
Why do you suppose that a certain faction has been trying for years to eliminate the private ownership of arms? It doesn't happen overnight. It happens bit by bit, not so much that you notice and throw a fit, but it happens slowly enough that one day you wake up with NOTHING as far as rights and wonder what in the heck happened.
 
#82 ·
I'm ******* enough to be an "isolationist".

I ain't no "globalist" and all I care about is my country. If the rest of the world went up in smoke, I could care less as the rest of the world has nothing I want.

I just want to stay home, live in peace and die an old happy man. Part of living in peace is having the tools to repel those that would do me harm.

Biker :palmier:
 
#84 ·
The discussions of lost freedoms and rights, at least for me, can be boiled down to a few basic questions.

1. When I was a kid and stupidly broke in to a house and vandalized it, where were the Cops? They came and took a statement.

2. When my house was broken in to and things stolen from me, where were the Cops? They came and took a statement.

3. When I was jumped by a gang in HS, where were the Cops? They took a statement.

4. When I was removing a "No Skateboarding" sign off of a shopping mall wall, a Cop saw me and I got in trouble for it.

So with just a small example of things that have happened to me personally I can tell you that the odds are in favor of me needing to defend myself, and have the Cops take a statement afterwards.

With that said, every little thing that stands in between my peace and right to survive in the way I see fit for me and mine is a potential problem. Weather that problem be a BG, or a knucklehead politician telling me that I need to pay extra, register this and that, and prove I am capable of defending myself.

I need the Govt. fixing my roads and defending the US borders. I don't need them telling me that I can't defend myself or trying to force me out of the business of defending myself through increased regulations and prices.
 
#85 ·
I went to school, I read, I try to think beyond the talking points of political parties.
Excellent.

This forum is about ammo, not the greatest problems of our country.
This post has little to do with ammo. This post has everything to do with giving up some liberty for safety, an equation that no matter what math you do it with, it always comes out wrong. Lets modify our habits to keep the bad-guys from abusing something. It doesn't work that way in reality and people that think it does are the problem with society and it is a great problem.

Our problems have little to do with the lack of rights, it is the lack of willingness to do something of value with those rights while at the same time people are unwilling to consider an authority (be it God, society, or country) beyond their own point of view.
If you call giving up our rights the right thing to do, then you are correct, I am unwilling to do so. As for considering a higher authority God is THE authority. When society decides that God in not the authority then it is on the road to collapse, but that is nothing new, history already proves this.

Call it fence riding if you want, but if there truly is a problem with BG buying ammo retail, I will not knee jerk.
Registration of ammo is so that a bad guy wont buy it is knee jerk.

Saying that you don't mind the extra restrictions on your self so that people that could care less about you or me or the law cant buy ammo is knee jerk.

I want to hear the issues and try to come to a reasonable solution.
You aren't hearing. You have already decided on what you think the "reasonable solution" is. Every dictator that has ever lived has used the words "reasonable solution". The problem with that is, that your "reasonable solution", is different than mine. Wars are fought over differences of opinions on to just what exactly that "reasonable solution" is.

Now I'm no authority, but if the only option you have to provide is as many guns and ammo a person can carry, I don't agree.
Where has any one mentioned that? Certainly not in this thread.

Responsibility and freedom.
What you propose is neither responsible, nor does it advance the cause of freedom.
 
#89 ·
Lets modify our habits to keep the bad-guys from abusing something. It doesn't work that way in reality and people that think it does are the problem with society and it is a great problem..
A good person who owns a weapon for SD means you have already modified a habit due to the bad guys

So modifying a habit, in reality, does stop the bad guy from abusing something.
 
#88 ·
HotGuns,

Thank for reading what I wrote.

Every argument you make quoting me comes down picking at the multiple meanings of the same word or looking at it from an extreme perspective to prove that A is wrong because worse case B could happen.

This is the same argument the anti-gun crowd makes when they say without aggressive gun restrictions someone could get murdered. Then some nut starts shooting up a school or his family. There theory is proved in their eyes. They try to prove A is wrong because B "could" happen.

Even what was intended as a general statement about people needing to consider an authority beyond their point of view turned into a definitive statement on "GOD." Am I to think GOD does not want there to be limits on ammo per the Bible? Everything has to be taken to an extreme. For example, let me pick apart your statement about GOD being the ultimate authority (and I will not even get into freedom of religion). GOD (if you are Christian, as I am) clearly stated he was not the ultimate authority on everything when He gave you free will. GOD provided the expectations: commandments, beatitudes, golden rule, etc. That leaves a lot that GOD would like you to figure out for yourself and own amusement.

Every argument does not need to be taken to an extreme. Sometimes the most likely needs to be considered. Even with gun laws.

I stand behind what I keep stating, knee jerk reactions do not serve the pro-gun crowd when it comes to the national (or global) conversation.
 
#90 ·
So modifying a habit, in reality, does stop the bad guy from abusing something.
Not true.

Modifying a habit, or a law, or even your thought process dosent really affect how they act or even think because they just dont care. They dont care about the law, they dont care about me, they dont care about you. They only care about themselves. Some of them dont care that they will spend the rest of their lives in a jail cell, they just dont care.

The only thing I can think of that does stop a bad guy from abusing anything for certain s a bullet in the head.


I stand behind what I keep stating, knee jerk reactions do not serve the pro-gun crowd when it comes to the national (or global) conversation.
Knee jerk reactions are pretty much the domain of anti gun crowds. We the pro-gun crowds pretty much react to what they say and do and propose to limit our freedoms.

What do they have to lose? Nothing. They will only act to compromise our freedoms, not theirs.
 
#91 ·
Modifying a habit, or a law, or even your thought process dosent really affect how they act or even think because they just dont care.
I think it has been shown that counties (locations) that have open carry / easy to aquire CCW have reduced crime rates. Normally the crime carries over into neighboring locations.

In addition, where there are prohibitions to reasonable SD access to firearms, crime rates tend to be high, and the criminals use force (not always a fire arm, but a knife, etc).

The criminal does change their habits based on their prey.

Sometimes for the worse. Like the increase in carjacking once transponder ign arrived. At a point, the reward is greater than the risk.

Knee jerk reactions are pretty much the domain of anti gun crowds...
Agree. But the same is true for pro-gun.
 
#92 ·
I think it has been shown that counties (locations) that have open carry / easy to aquire CCW have reduced crime rates. Normally the crime carries over into neighboring locations.
Reduced violent crime rates. Crimes against people go down and usaully the non violent crimes like burglary or theft go up in a corresponding manner.

In addition, where there are prohibitions to reasonable SD access to firearms, crime rates tend to be high, and the criminals use force (not always a fire arm, but a knife, etc).
Sure it does. All we have to do is look at D.C, Chicago or NYC. The crooks there know that they can get away with anything. Trying the same thing in most other states would contribute to a very short career in crime.


The criminal does change their habits based on their prey.
I agree. They profile their victims. They prey on the weak, the infirm, people in Condition White.

Even they arent stupid enough to take on someone that they think might be packing a gun. Occasionaly one makes a wrong assumption and gets to meet his Creator.

Agree. But the same is true for pro-gun.
Nah.
I'm still failing to see how not being willing to give something up for nothing is a knee jerk reaction.
 
#93 ·
An ammo permit would not "have to" increase costs.

There is a national endowment of the arts. There could be a requirement in a ammo permit law to create a national endowment of the 2nd amendment. Funding could go toward 12th grade citizen firearm training. Better practice, because your scores will go on your record (and you might not get into that college you want without a good score Sally).

Now that we have solved ammo concerns by making a permit for ammo, lets add tax breaks to pay for the permit holder's weekly range time. In addition, since you would need a permit for the firearm, ccw, and ammo...might as well create a national ccw permit for law abiding citizens. Valid in lower 48 + 1, I would say 50 but GL with HI, and I'm sure AK would not be that hard of a fight. Not fair to make someone pay for all the back ground checks. The only solution is a national ccw permit.

Make ammo tax free. If they say no to that, make ammo yearly annual purchases under $1,200 tax free. My .357 SIG eats dollars like a dependant eats mac and cheese.

Pro-gun often assumes we will get nothing for something. I think there are a lot of options we can counter with.
 
#94 ·
An ammo permit would not "have to" increase costs.
Wrong.
How many permits are out there that don't require at least an administration fee?

I cant think of one permit for anything that is free. And even if it was free, at first, how long would it last until someone decided that it could be a source of revenue for something?
It just doesn't work that way.

There is a national endowment of the arts.
Yeah I've heard of that. Federal funding for gay porn that is displayed as freedom of speech.

Pro-gun always assumes we will get nothing for something. I think there are a lot of options we can counter with.
I am still waiting for you to show me a viable option and convince me that we should take a step backwards to make it harder for the bad-guys.

Show me an advantage to what you propose. An advantage to me, not the bad guys.
 
#97 · (Edited)
How many permits are out there that don't require at least an administration fee?
I would assume as a CCW permit holder there would not be any additional administration fees beyond what you already pay for the CCW.

...how long would it last until someone decided that it could be a source of revenue for something?
Why any law that should be passed would require a limitation on how long the law would be in effect with out renewal / confidence vote. It would state that permit costs would not be increased during that period.

I am still waiting for you to show me a viable option and convince me that we should take a step backwards to make it harder for the bad-guys.

Show me an advantage to what you propose. An advantage to me, not the bad guys.
I don't know what your "ya thats worth it" option is, I'm just saying, there is a lot we can gain if we give (and it just might be reasonable). I just want that possibility to be part of the thought process.

There are a large list of words that we pro-gun say all day long that makes the haters go crazy. In comparison "Gun-regulations" is a trigger (no pun) word for the pro-gun crowd. Maybe you think for good reason, I understand.

What I believe, and I know I'm a huge minority on this site, is that both the pro-gun and the anti-gun people have valid concerns that do need solutions. Anti-gun tend to be more concerned about the now (both a good and bad thing). Pro-gun tends to have a sense or self-responsibility and history.
 
#95 ·
What will the antis think of next. I as well as most of y'all here who posses a CCW have already been through the back ground checks. First it's for loaded ammo, Then It's for reloading components, then come the tax increases ,and more fees. I agree with HotGuns. How about something to benefit us for a change. CCW folks are the most law abiding folks around. Thats why we were able to get the permits in the first place. Just aonther ploy to get to us. If we can't get the guns lets get the ammo price it sky high and lets see who is buying it.
Big Brother needs to BUTT OUT.:spankme: There i feel better now . I have got my rant for the day out of my system now. I have'nt posted fro a while, So Hi gang.
 
#96 ·
...most of y'all here who posses a CCW have already been through the back ground checks.
In my state, as a CCW holder, I do not need a permit to purchase a handgun. My CCW is my permit. I do need to register the gun. For got how long. Think 10 days. I just do it next day.

Same would be true for an ammo permit. No need if you had a CCW. No background / permit cost to curent CCW holders.
 
#99 ·
So what limitations / restrictions should there be.

What restriction should be placed on a law abiding citizen beyond being able purchase and carry as many guns and ammo as they can and want?
I am in Arkansas. I can walk into a gun store, put out the cash and walk out with my gun. I can take it home, load it up and fire it in my yard while drinking sweet tea. Same with ammo, even though I don't buy ammo other than .22.

There is no registration of guns, nothing to impede me from buying all the ammo that I want.

That is as it should be.

Why should there be any restrictions or limitations on what I buy? I have never committed a crime and in this country, in most places anyway, you are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

So that you understand where I am coming from, I happen to own lots and lots of guns. I think I am still in double digits. That includes several AR's, AK's,SKS and every manner of so called "black gun" that you can imagine. I also have a couple of .50 BMG's, numerous revolvers and pistols. I reload for all them. I cast bullets for most of them.

Guess what. None of them are registered, I don't need or want permission from the government whether local or federal to tell me what I can or cant own, or to tell me how much ammo I can own.

As a matter of fact, I shoot more ammo in a years time than alot of small police departments do as a total.

Nothing you have said or proposed has want to make me change the way I do business.

You talk of giving something up to appease the anti-gunners. We have been doing that for the last 40 years and what has it gotten us?

Let me give you another perspective. I am a CHL instructor. I have been averaging 50 students per class. In March I had 80. I am not doing this myself, I have several other Instructors do different segments of the class to break up the monotony. We have been doing 1 class a month, and it has been filling up and we have been turning students away and referring them to the next class.

You are proposing that we "give up" to the ant's by voluntarily imposing a permit, or a fee of some sort, or a limit on ammo at a time when the Democrats have figured out that they had better be quiet about being anti-gun until at least after the next election, because they got their tails handed to them in the last two by Republicans that supported the right to bear arms while many of them opposed it.

There are now 47 states that have some sort of system for concealed weapons. Most of those are shall issue states,meaning that they don't have to jump through hoops, donate to a campaign, or kiss the tail of the Mayor or local Police Chief. You don't have to be related to anyone, you don't have to be a prominent member of society, all you have to do is have a clean record and submit your fee. In the may issue states, you are at the mercy or whim of who ever issues the permits. They don't care that your life may be in jeopardy or what ever reason you may have, in those states you are little more than a second class citizen.

In this state, as well as several other states here in the south, business has never been better. More and more people are getting permits to tote, more are becoming aware. The more they become aware, the more that they see some of the ridiculous laws, some of which make no sense at all, and they wonder what good they do, and they finally understand that most of them have no real bearing or reason or rationale for being passed other than it was the popular thing to do for some Senator or Congressmen so that he could get some air time and those that voted for them could see their smiling faces on TV.

In the last 15 years, we have been making great strides in regaining much of what was lost. We have the momentum, the tide rolls in our favor. The handgun business, especially the defensive part of it is thriving, we have new handguns being made specifically for self defense hitting the shelves all the time.

The ball is in our court and we are winning the game.

Why should I be willing to give up the advantage by limiting what I can do just to appease someone that doesn't understand or could care less?
 
#102 ·
You talk of giving something up to appease the anti-gunners. We have been doing that for the last 40 years and what has it gotten us? ... Why should I be willing to give up the advantage by limiting what I can do just to appease someone that doesn't understand or could care less?
I think you and I live in different environments. In all fairness, I have not considered that what you consider restrictive, in my neck of the woods, would be less restrictive. Not saying MI has all that bad of gun laws compared to say IL, but I'm in a different part of the world than you.

Blanket statements on how all restricts should be dropped in my neck of the woods is just not realistic. For you, it is what you already have, what would you gain. In addition there is a different level and type of crime here when compared to there.

I had not considered this.

I still believe there is a knee-jerk reaction that pro-gun has to "gun restrictions." This reaction causes ripples in your world, waves in mine.
 
#100 ·
The only proper answer to any question that begins "Would you be willing to give up your rights..." is not just no, but HECK NO!

(OK, normally, I wouldn't use "Heck"...but, family site and all, you know).

Anyone remember Franklins quote about what one deserves when they trade liberty for safety?
 
#103 ·
Well, technically you do need ID to buy ammo. Have to prove your age. However, a background check??? NO! Far more people are killed every day with cars. There is no waiting period, no background check. The right to convenient transportation is not guaranteed in the Constituion, the right to keep and bear arms is. Underage and drunk individuals improperly and dangerously drive all the time. Would you be willing to produce your drivers license and perform a breathalyzer every time you get gas?

The whole idea speaks of elitism and government nannyism. The only way this idea could be worse is if the question was:

"Would you be willing to produce id and perform a background check when buying ammo? It's for the common good."

Papers please.
 
#105 ·
"Controlling" ammo is retarded! I reload...so how would Criminals be prevented from reloading their own? Rediculous! Punish the criminals with a huge penalty for miss-using guns people!
 
#109 ·
Some could argue you give up safety (more likely to have gun related injury) for freedom (right to bear arms). Just though I would stir up the wasp nest. By the time gun laws are that liberal here, the magic wand will wave, and all the criminals will become boyscouts.

In the place I stand, with a Glock at the ready, gun regulations are a reality, and a one-sided mantra will not gain any votes (Glock part said real tough for effect and awe).
 
#110 ·
Gun control has nothing to do with guns. It's always all about control.
 
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