I'm at a loss here... Myth or About Right?
This is a discussion on I'm at a loss here... Myth or About Right? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've long heard this old chesnut regarding the relative (in)effectiveness of .22 LR against goblins: that a shot from a .22 pistol is effectively the ...
December 13th, 2005 01:11 AM
I'm at a loss here... Myth or About Right?
I've long heard this old chesnut regarding the relative (in)effectiveness of .22 LR against goblins: that a shot from a .22 pistol is effectively the same as stabbing someone with an icepick.
I've always thought of it as just a good analogy. No one would really agree that an ice pick is that great of a weapon, but it could certainly function in a pinch, it just wouldn't really stop an attacker who was the slightest bit determined. And if you put it in the whole Ears Eyes Nose Throat area, it could be rather effective.
Is there however any truth to this? Has some whacko with too much spare time and a block of gelatin ever tried to prove or disprove this? It came up the other time with some people swearing it was literally true. I argued that the ice pick was probably actually more damaging most of the time.
I'm not saying we should all rush out and buy .22s for self defense or that if the only thing available is a 22/45 you should use your car keys instead, I'm just wondering if anyone's been crazy enough to try this.
Slightly off topic, I have met a man who was shot twice with .22 LR out of a rifle at close range, and it knocked the thunder out of him, but he easily survived it with no scarring or lasting effects. He liked to tell that story and show where the bullets entered him, and they were right at COM. The ice pick as analogy seems about right to me.
December 13th, 2005 02:03 AM
I responded to a suicide several years ago that was commited with a 22 LR revolver and lead round nose standard velocity ammo. The entrance wound was left temple and the autopsy showed a text book mushroom of the bullet that lodged againt the right temple. Is 22 LR effective? Would I count on it as my primary? Yes! No! No matter what caliber you use shot placement is the key and with that in mind any caliber can get the job done. What most people don't understand is that mind set or grit will keep the wounded person mobile until they bleed out if the shot is not placed in the portion of the brain shuting down your system instantly. People that are determined can do a tremendous amount of damage before they give up the fight.
December 13th, 2005 08:31 AM
I carry my NAA .22 for close work , last resort. As Betty so eloquently, it's a nose picker. I know somone who was shot in the leg w/ a .22 from a rifle. I consider the .22 a last resort weapon, but better than beating someone with a loaf of bread.
December 13th, 2005 08:44 AM
There was a true case of a man in Alaska who was out hiking and had a .22 long barrel revolver with him. He was suddenly jumped and chased by a Grizzly bear. He ran up onto a small mound and knew he had no chance whatsoever of coming out of this alive in any form. He pulled out the only defense he had, the .22, fired a shot at the bear as it was now only 10-15 feet away . The bear IMMEDIATELY dropped to the ground . The guy then proceeds to place some more shots to the bear. The bear was either dead or dead for all practical purposes allowing the man to live and depart the area.
Apparently, according to authorities in the area , the .22 must have hit a perfect shot at the base of the skull or severed the spinal cord or something crucial putting him down so hard and fast.
Yes a super, super lucky shot , but it can be done with 'the ice-pick bullet'
diplomacy ... the art of saying "nice doggie"..while looking for a big rock !!
December 13th, 2005 09:57 AM
1952 - 2006
The only problem with a .22 as I see it is, that old proverb, shot placement. If as a last resort you have the option to put one in the brain pan, preferably the eye socket, it will perform wonders in it's stopping power.
Other than that it may just give you enough time to deliver 5 or 6 rounds COM for you to get out of Dodge.
Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences
"I like when the enemy shoots at me; then I know where the ******** are and can kill them."
DE OPPRESSO LIBER
December 13th, 2005 10:25 AM
December 13th, 2005 10:45 AM
Having personaly been shot with a .22 ( out of a colt woodsman ) i can attest that it is not an experiace to repeat. that being said i have also worked cases where .22s were used on folks , it is no fight stopper either , qk makes good points on facial shots tho IMHO and in my experiance fiew if any have the ability under stress to place thier rounds as described . it seems to me that the effectiveness of the .22 ( as with all pistol calibers to a degree ) depends on the mindset of the person shot , in the " fla FBI shooting " the suspects suffered fatal wounds and kept fighting , others fall down if shot with a bb gun . I personaly will carry larger calibers than the 22 - .32 group, that being said a .22 still beats throwing rocks or grapeling with an agressor
December 13th, 2005 11:02 AM
Several years ago, a co-worker hobbled in with a sheepish grin on his face. It seems he had been out hunting squirrels with a .22 single shot rifle using .22 short ammo. You guessed it...an accidental discharge that went through the boot top, his foot, and lodged in the sole of the boot. He said the only reason it didn't go through the sole was that he was standing on a rock and that was what stopped the bullet. Properly placed, a "little" .22 can do a lot more than you think...
noli nothis permittere te terere...
December 13th, 2005 11:37 AM
QK sums this up very well - not sure tho re the analogy of ice pick, tho it has the right ''sound'' to it!
A swinging ice pick impacting the right (?wrong?!) place is sure gonna make for one big world of hurt - and in fact would/could stop someone pretty quick.
As ever the humble .22 sits in a world of its own - rimfire so on balance less reliable but as said - shot placement will totally determine outcome - or speed thereof. Last resort, it sure as heck beats zilch!
I think back to my rabbit hunting days - subsonic HP's with suppressor - 50 yards - ''thwop'' - very dead bunny!! Always reminded me of the ''non toy'' nature of the round.
Did I ever post pics of tests I did way way back? I fired various rounds into modelling clay and then cut blocks in half - results were quite interesting. Got the pics, somewhere.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
December 13th, 2005 12:09 PM
I may be very mistaken, but I believe years ago, that when a "hit" was done on certain Mob gangster members, it was done with a High Standard Sportking or Victor type, with a supressor on the end of the muzzle. Close and quiet. Either way, I'm not willing to stand and take a few rounds from anything, including a 22LR caliber.
Remington Yellow jackets work VERY well BTW.
Here's some very interesting information about the Underrated and underappreciated 22 LR
ALSO..the link here about Marine and SEAL teams utilizing a High Standard Supressed HD model in their weapon of choice
Why Waltz when you can Rock-N-Roll
December 13th, 2005 03:26 PM
Regardless of what it is that caused the hole...
People don't like to leak!!!!
They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Previously known as "cjm5874"
December 13th, 2005 03:41 PM
"With my S&W model 41 I cannot physically pull the trigger faster than that pistol will cycle.[\i]
I don't know if you can imagine 10 shots that basically SOUND like ONE gun shot & with almost no felt recoil.
That is how fast a GOOD .22 semi~auto will fully cycle.
So....10 lightning fast easy head shots & then a fast reload & 10 more.
I (for sure) never want 8 or 10 "machine gunned" .22 caliber bullets coming at my precious head."
I'm a little confused by the speed implications that a .22 can be fired faster because of it's rapid cycle rate. Can't guns always cycle faster than we can pull the trigger? A 9mm Glock 18 can run something like 900 rounds a minute and it doesn't have cycle problems. To shoot a .22 at that rate would require pulling the trigger every 66 milliseconds. There's no way a human can approach that speed. The point is we aren't limited by the cycle time of the gun but rather by how fast we can pull the trigger.
When I took my Edged Weapons course, the ice pick was described as one of the most dangerous edged weapons. The technique is to insert and churn. Supposedly produces a devasting wound.
December 13th, 2005 04:19 PM
Good Catch Tangle
Yes, that's true Tangle & I probably should have been more clear.
I was sort of meaning that with the S&W 41 and in .22 LR it's possible (for me) to pull the trigger as fast as is humanly possible & still have all ten shots be viable and extremely accurate head shots. The pistol barely moves.
For accurate defensive shooting most folks are also limited to as fast as they can pull the trigger In Combination With as well as they can can stay on target.
December 13th, 2005 05:02 PM
i would also like to note that a " hit" on someone by the mob , seals , mossad , or whoeaver is a far cry from a slef defense situation , you can no more compair them than you can compair the practice of headshooting beef at slaughter houses to hunting
December 13th, 2005 05:52 PM
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