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9mm carry question

5K views 48 replies 18 participants last post by  MilitaryPower 
#1 ·
I specifically didnt get a keltec because of there inability to shoot magsafe, but after reading some things i worry about the legality of carrying with it. Being new to shooting, i have no idea on ammo types or anything like that. Right now at the range i have been shooting PNC bronze, but i feel like i should be storing / carrying with something "better".
 
#11 ·
I wasn't 100% sure, but after a debate on another forum i was worried that using magsafe could be considered premeditated.
With all the respect due such claims: malarkey.

I think ahead (premeditate) on the risks, challenges and responsibilities surrounding providing for my own security, and for that of my family. Our lives are infinitely more valuable (to us) than any BG, particularly when a BG is attempting to take everything we've got.

I think ahead (premeditate) on various situations and suitable tactics, so that I can escape alive.

I think ahead (premeditate) as to what the most expeditious methods might be for terminating a threat. It's incidental to the BG's chosen line of work that his life hangs in the balance due to his stupid, illegal, immoral and unsustainable choice of vocation. That is not my problem. My problem is to escape alive. If that ends up with one BG toes-up in the gutter ... so be it.

I think ahead on all those things. I thank the gods that I am able to do this reasonably well, at least within the constraints I have. With the training I do, I hope it's enough.

Reality? Your purpose in any attempt to take the last thing you have (your life) is to terminate the threat. That may well mean one daisy-pushing biped over yonder. Would you prefer that be you? No? Then, accept that you will have done your job passably well if you're able to walk home that night, after the clean-up is done. Make it happen exactly that way. Your family deserves no less.

NONE of this has anything to do with caliber, or with a given manufacturer's brand name, or a style of commonly-accepted defensive ammunition. (Well, that's not entirely true, as noted above, but it's darned near so.) Pick your choices, become competent with them, responsibly and competently carry your defensive tools, and be honorable in how you apply force in situations demanding it.

At least, that's the way I see it. YMMV.
 
#4 ·
There is only one reason that I carry a gun. That reason is to kill another person in self-defense. The argument that one type of ammo is "premeditation" is a mute point in a self defense trial. You either shot the guy in self defense or you shot him in a non self defense situation. The question about the lethality of the ammo, and whether or not the ammo was handloaded, has proven in various cases to be irrelevant in a self defense trial. No, I don't have specific case sites, but there is plenty of actual written material out there that does provide te case sites.

I prefer to carry simple, good quality hollow points. In .45 ACP I carry +P 230 grain hollow points, because it gives the best trade off between the heavy bullet and energy transfer. (Magtech Guardian Gold).

And, technically, I did premeditate. I premeditated to kill anybody that I feel is a threat of life or grave bodily injury to myself or to any other persons, which I am justified by the law to do.
 
#6 ·
:aaa:

Geez, not this crap again.

I carry a firearm to STOP the illegal action that is threatening me, a loved one or third party, if I choose to intervene.

I try to carry ammo that will not penetrate the body of my attcker and then go down the street and hurt or kill the baby in the stroller half a block away. Magsafe was designed with this thought in mind. Most of the "good" defensive rounds, JHP's, will meet this criteria as well and are probably better than Magsafe at providing a "happy medium" between enough penetration to get the job done and too much penetration.

You NEVER shoot to kill, unless you are a murderer. Certain people's choices in verbiage will see them in prison if they are ever forced to defend themselves with a firearm. To the Original Poster, do yourself a favor and read, "In The Gravest Extreme", by Massad Ayoob. It's worth it's weight in gold.

Biker :palmier:
 
#7 ·
I'm sorry, Biker, I must respectfully disagree. Legally, it does not matter what your intentions are if you use a standard gun with standard ammo. The presention of the gun constitutes threatening with DEADLY force. The firing of the gun constitutes using DEADLY force. Whether your intent was to kill the target, or merely to stop the target, deadly force was either used or threatened. If the use of deadly force was not justified, you can claim all you want to that you ony meant to stop the target, but, by law, the fact is that you used a deadly weapon and therefore deadly force.

The only exception to this is if the gun and/or the ammo was specifically designed to incapacitate, rather than kill, such as rubber bullets or beanbags, and, in some states, an additional caveat to the law is added that specifies such non-lethal devices must be used by specifically trained persons such as LEO to constitute non-lethal force.

In the military, if "deadly force is not authorized" I am not allowed, nor will I, use my sidearm. If "deadly force is authorized", I will only use my sidearm as deadly force and nothing less, unless, in special circumstances, the specific rules of engagement specify something else, such as warning shots.

In the civilian world, I will only use my gun when, to the best of my judgement, deadly force is justified and I will fall back upon my military training which, when using a handgun, is to double tap center mass. I do not know of any state which, by law, does not consider a standard gun, using standard ammo as anything less than deadly force.
 
#8 ·
NavyLT is absolutely correct. We were taught at the Wisconsin State Patrol Academy. "If you have to shoot, shoot to kill". First, because the easiest target to hit is the chest which is also the "kill zone"; if you aim elsewhere, your chance of a miss is greater. Second, a wounded adversary is still an adversary.

If you do wound an adversary, and you are SAFELY able to do so, then you need to render aid and attempt to save their life.
 
#9 ·
While this is, at heart, a semantic debate, the point is most certainly not moot. (Nor is it mute, but that's another story... :wink:)

Everything you say can and will be looked at by the prosecutor, by the grand jury, and (possibly) by a jury. In all likelihood, none of these folks will be experts on guns, justifiable shootings, etc. Your choice of words (and, to a lesser extent perhaps, guns and ammunition) are going to be looked at by people not by Law Robots. If you say that you meant to kill, rather than to stop the immediate threat, your actions could very well face scrutiny that they otherwise may have avoided. It makes absolutely no sense to choose language that can only hurt you should you ever be faced with a criminal or civil prosecution.

Worst case - you go to prison for a long time as a "killer." Best case, you spend time and money (and money, and money) defending yourself against charges that could have been lessened or made to go away entirely if you weren't so quick to spout out how you "intended to kill" to anyone who would listen.

Also, caliber and weapon choice have been shown to influence a jury in at least one case. Read Ayoob - he has an incredible library of cases where folks who should or could have escaped criminal conviction DID NOT, and went to jail even though their shootings were - all other things aside - justifiable. Cocking the hammer on a double action revolver, for example, contributed to one man going to prison...you just never know, so for cryin' out loud eliminate all the questionable things (like saying you meant to kill) from your routine.

Lastly, you generally have no legal responsibility to aid ANYONE, much less someone who just tried to kill you. Unless you are a doctor/paramedic/EMT (and then, only maybe) will you be required to render aid, and even then only if it is safe to do so, and only within the limits of your training and abilities.

And Gator, to answer your question - if you want the Kel Tec, get it. Load it with high quality expanding ammunition (similar to that used by almost every law enforcement agency in the country) that feeds reliably and that you can shoot well. Then, practice, and don't worry about your choice of weapon/ammo.
 
#12 ·
These "legal" discussions have occurred many times on this forum, do a search and read the plethora of discussions on this matter.

One of the things that the moderators do is look for things like the word "kill" as we do not advertise illegal actions on this forum. To some it may seem like semantics but I can assure you if you are on the defense, the words used by you will be much more than just semantics. I work in the forensic field and right now I am serving on a Grand Jury so I know how the prosecutors work and think, just as I do most civil attorneys. I will frequently advise attorneys on certain matters that are in my realm of expertise.

You want to stop the threat in self defense, it may turn out to be fatal and that is unfortunate but that was the BG's choice when he committed his crime.

As responsible self defenders we do not want to plan to "Kill" another human, that would be premeditated.
 
#16 ·
The problem is that most people will talk to the police before your good lawyer ever gets to sit down and talk to you. If you use the verbage of I was trying to Kill him....you maybe in a pickle.

I train for high center mass, shoot to stop, and and pull the trigger as many times as I possible can to neutralize the threat.

If the attacker expires due to attack on me then that is a bi-product of my act of self defense.

I know what your saying; however, for somebody wearing a civilian hat engaging somebody as a civilian you unfortunalty are under the civililan law, not Navy law, or granted special protective policing powers unless your a sworn officer. Self Defense not only entails your right to defend your self against an attacker but defend your self from a possible crimianl prosecuation, and civil suits after the encounter. Most people train and probably can defend themselves from an attacker with a gun. Most people cannot defend themselves from spilling their guts to the responding police, stating something like "I killed him" or do something that will hurt them financially down the road.
 
#14 ·
Welcome!

A couple things.

First, being that you are in Florida, I would recommend that you set out immediately to obtain a copy of Florida Firearms by Jon Gutmacher. Mr. Gutmacher is an attorney and an avid shooter. He really understands this stuff from both the legal perspective and the point of view of the armed citizen. He breaks down the law in clear, easily understood language with plenty of footnotes.

You can get a copy here: ORLANDO CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY | AGGRAVATED BATTERY DEFENSE LAWYER JON H. GUTMACHER, Esq.

As for ammunition restrictions in Florida, the following are prohibited:
  • Armor piercing handgun ammo with a steel (or equivalent) core.
  • Exploding ammunition containing an explosive or flammable agent in the projectile
  • "Dragon's Breath" shotgun shells
  • Bolo style shotgun shells (2 or more projectiles connected with a wire)
  • Flechette rounds

Magsafe is lawful for sale and carry in Florida. Whether or not it actually works as well as advertised is a topic for a different thread.

Matt
 
#18 ·
jeez, i go to bed for a few hours and i come back to this!

I already have bought my carry weapon and dont plan on changing it to the dude who said about purchasing keltec, plus from the reviews i read the PT is pretty decent, im new but i like it so far and havent had any issues.

Back to my question, what would you consider a good carry ammo? (as in brand name type etc, so i can just go to the store and pick it up).

Also, the discussions about legality and other such in this thread just goes to show the possible instability for using something like magsafe. My safety is of the highest importance to me, but so is my ass if i was to end up going to prison for 20 years. So therefor its not worth the risk of carrying magsafe, but instead maybe something somewhat as reliable.
 
#23 ·
Speer makes a Gold Dot load tailored for short barrels. It's what I carry in my compact 9mm.

Conventional wisdom suggests that the 124 gr loads perform better that the heavier 147s in short barrels, because there might not be enough velocity to reliably expand the 147s.

Matt
 
#19 ·
Well, first, the jury is out on Magsafe - no one reputable is claiming it to be the mother of all handgun loads - so don't think you are giving up much (if anything) by not carrying it.

As I posted before, find a good quality expanding ammo from a reputable manufacturer that functions reliably in your gun, and that you can shoot well. The end.

Some places to start:

Speer Gold Dot
Winchester Ranger
Federal HST

There are others, too - buy a box or two of all the premium defense loads you can find, and figure out which is the most reliable and the most accurate for you; the performance differences are much less important than your ability to hit what you are aiming at reliably...
 
#24 ·
it is the PT111 millenium pro, there was a ton of confusion between all the different ones, but its the one that is 12+1.

I really really liked the PT 24/7 pro, the "sticky" grip was absolutely great, i have small hands and it fit perfectly as does the PT111, but the 111 was smaller and being that this is my CC weapon that is what i was going for.



as far as the ammo goes, i think i will go to the local shop and pick up some of those yall listed and try them out, i wasn't sure if there was a specific "godsend" ammo.
 
#22 ·
For me anything in 9 MM has to be at least +P.

My current Duty Load is Federal 115 Grain +P+ JHP. Other loads I like are:

Corbon 115 Grain +P DPX
Winchester 127 Grain +P+ JHP
Gold Dot 124 Grain +P JHP

I am more "selective" with my 9 MM ammo than any other caliber, except 38 Special because there is less of a "margin for error" in selecting a good round.

Biker :palmier:
 
#26 ·
I tell ya what hand , Just carry the worst 9mm ammo that you can find . If the deity forbid you actually shoot someone well then subpoena some experts like say Taylor who will all agree that the 9mm is totally unsuitable for anything more stressful than shooting small dogs , mice , rats , and other non dangerous vermin . BTW i carry a 9 , and frankly anything from standard P hydrashocks through the +P dpx is fine with me . I more believe its where i shoot them than the bean i shoot them with . Also my advise is worth just as much as anyone elses , Its still online advise and as such worth what you pay for it . One thing in your OP did bother me tho ..

but after reading some things i worry about the legality of carrying with it.
I have to ask , You do have a permit for said pistol dont you ? If so all is well and thanks for coming here for info. If not well go get one and come back .
 
#27 ·
im not carrying ATM, just once in the car (in a backpack next to the driver seat) which from my understanding is legal in florida, but will be carrying soon, just waiting for the permit in the mail. Just doin my homework before the due date if ya get my drift.
 
#28 ·
The PMC Bronze ammo is good. I've tried it in my G27 (40S&W). It's also fairly clean shooting also and priced reasonable. I rather like the Speer 124+P GoldDots myself. Have you tried any HP's in your pistol?
 
#30 ·
DOH! I should have looked at you avatar and known it was a mil pro. I carry the P145 version. Two things I have found with this gun, I don't know if this applies to the 9mm or not:

1. Try this with the gun UNLOADED. Partialy depress the trigger, while doing so put the safety on. The slide should be locked closed now by the safety, but if you engaged the safety with the trigger slightly depressed, release the trigger and attempt to pull the trigger, the gun will still fire now with the safety on. Just something to be aware of.

2. I grip the gun naturally with my pinky under the magazine because the grip is too small. My wife naturally gripped the gun on the grip only, allowing the magazine to hang freely, while my grip tended to push it up into the gun. When we first got it, it would jam about 80% of the time for her, fail to feed, but was 100% reliable for me. We finally figured out it was the difference in the magazine position due to our difference in grips. We sent it back to Taurus which improved, but did not completely correct the problem. She got a Glock 27 and I took the mil pro since it had never malfunctioned for me. Like I said, don't know if this will be a problem with the 9mm or not.
 
#31 ·
AH! im really happy you pointed that out, i have noticed sometimes the clip doesnt look all the way "in" and was just normal. My hands are right inbetween your hands, small but not a small womans small. My grip has my pinky just touching the lip of the grip.

i have only had one instant of pulling the trigger and the round not firing, but i had thought it was mainly me not pushing the last round all the way back in the clip.

next time i shoot i will deff look out for that clip issue for if it is a issue i do want to get it fixed.

Navy, if you dont mind my asking what carry holster do you use? ive been scowering the conceal carry picture post, but having some problems since most of my cloths are tighter fitting. I feel like finding a comfortable and concealed holster is going to be a pain.
 
#32 ·
I don't know if my holster would work for you or not because I seldom carry concealed, I mostly open carry. I like the Uncle Mike's Law Enforcement series, the belt slide pancake type. It would only be suitable for concealing under an un-tucked shirt or jacket. There are inside the pants holsters that clip to your belt but have a dip in the clip on the inside of the waistband that allow for a tucked in shirt.

I have the Uncle Mike's holster that is actually one size too big for the Mil Pro because I can also carry a full size (Ruger P345 or Taurus PT-92) in it.
 
#34 ·
There are a number of open carry states...

Be sure to get a holster that fits, and the highest quality that you can afford. Same goes for your belt. The belt, holster, and gun are part of a system, and the system is only as good as the weakest link. Sure, you can stuff it in the waist band of your jeans, but it will fall out some day (ask me how I know), and a cheap belt will sag and bend out of shape - requiring you to buy a new one more often then you might expect.
 
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