9mm carry question

9mm carry question

This is a discussion on 9mm carry question within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I specifically didnt get a keltec because of there inability to shoot magsafe, but after reading some things i worry about the legality of carrying ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array gatorsmash's Avatar
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    9mm carry question

    I specifically didnt get a keltec because of there inability to shoot magsafe, but after reading some things i worry about the legality of carrying with it. Being new to shooting, i have no idea on ammo types or anything like that. Right now at the range i have been shooting PNC bronze, but i feel like i should be storing / carrying with something "better".


  2. #2
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    What, specifically are you worried about the legality of? There are no laws in Florida (or anywhere else that I know of) that are against ammunition of the type that Magsafe is. New Jersey prohibits a person from carrying hollow points for self defense.

  3. #3
    Member Array gatorsmash's Avatar
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    I wasn't 100% sure, but after a debate on another forum i was worried that using magsafe could be considered premeditated. Plus, curious about other options.

  4. #4
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    There is only one reason that I carry a gun. That reason is to kill another person in self-defense. The argument that one type of ammo is "premeditation" is a mute point in a self defense trial. You either shot the guy in self defense or you shot him in a non self defense situation. The question about the lethality of the ammo, and whether or not the ammo was handloaded, has proven in various cases to be irrelevant in a self defense trial. No, I don't have specific case sites, but there is plenty of actual written material out there that does provide te case sites.

    I prefer to carry simple, good quality hollow points. In .45 ACP I carry +P 230 grain hollow points, because it gives the best trade off between the heavy bullet and energy transfer. (Magtech Guardian Gold).

    And, technically, I did premeditate. I premeditated to kill anybody that I feel is a threat of life or grave bodily injury to myself or to any other persons, which I am justified by the law to do.

  5. #5
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    BTW, 9mm is a very high velocity round already, so I would not consider it necessary to carry +P in 9mm, just my own humble opinion.

  6. #6
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    There is only one reason that I carry a gun. That reason is to kill another person in self-defense. The argument that one type of ammo is "premeditation" is a mute point in a self defense trial. You either shot the guy in self defense or you shot him in a non self defense situation. The question about the lethality of the ammo, and whether or not the ammo was handloaded, has proven in various cases to be irrelevant in a self defense trial. No, I don't have specific case sites, but there is plenty of actual written material out there that does provide te case sites.

    I prefer to carry simple, good quality hollow points. In .45 ACP I carry +P 230 grain hollow points, because it gives the best trade off between the heavy bullet and energy transfer. (Magtech Guardian Gold).

    And, technically, I did premeditate. I premeditated to kill anybody that I feel is a threat of life or grave bodily injury to myself or to any other persons, which I am justified by the law to do.


    Geez, not this crap again.

    I carry a firearm to STOP the illegal action that is threatening me, a loved one or third party, if I choose to intervene.

    I try to carry ammo that will not penetrate the body of my attcker and then go down the street and hurt or kill the baby in the stroller half a block away. Magsafe was designed with this thought in mind. Most of the "good" defensive rounds, JHP's, will meet this criteria as well and are probably better than Magsafe at providing a "happy medium" between enough penetration to get the job done and too much penetration.

    You NEVER shoot to kill, unless you are a murderer. Certain people's choices in verbiage will see them in prison if they are ever forced to defend themselves with a firearm. To the Original Poster, do yourself a favor and read, "In The Gravest Extreme", by Massad Ayoob. It's worth it's weight in gold.

    Biker

  7. #7
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, Biker, I must respectfully disagree. Legally, it does not matter what your intentions are if you use a standard gun with standard ammo. The presention of the gun constitutes threatening with DEADLY force. The firing of the gun constitutes using DEADLY force. Whether your intent was to kill the target, or merely to stop the target, deadly force was either used or threatened. If the use of deadly force was not justified, you can claim all you want to that you ony meant to stop the target, but, by law, the fact is that you used a deadly weapon and therefore deadly force.

    The only exception to this is if the gun and/or the ammo was specifically designed to incapacitate, rather than kill, such as rubber bullets or beanbags, and, in some states, an additional caveat to the law is added that specifies such non-lethal devices must be used by specifically trained persons such as LEO to constitute non-lethal force.

    In the military, if "deadly force is not authorized" I am not allowed, nor will I, use my sidearm. If "deadly force is authorized", I will only use my sidearm as deadly force and nothing less, unless, in special circumstances, the specific rules of engagement specify something else, such as warning shots.

    In the civilian world, I will only use my gun when, to the best of my judgement, deadly force is justified and I will fall back upon my military training which, when using a handgun, is to double tap center mass. I do not know of any state which, by law, does not consider a standard gun, using standard ammo as anything less than deadly force.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Array WoodLark's Avatar
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    NavyLT is absolutely correct. We were taught at the Wisconsin State Patrol Academy. "If you have to shoot, shoot to kill". First, because the easiest target to hit is the chest which is also the "kill zone"; if you aim elsewhere, your chance of a miss is greater. Second, a wounded adversary is still an adversary.

    If you do wound an adversary, and you are SAFELY able to do so, then you need to render aid and attempt to save their life.
    Earth is the insane asylum of the universe!

  9. #9
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    While this is, at heart, a semantic debate, the point is most certainly not moot. (Nor is it mute, but that's another story... )

    Everything you say can and will be looked at by the prosecutor, by the grand jury, and (possibly) by a jury. In all likelihood, none of these folks will be experts on guns, justifiable shootings, etc. Your choice of words (and, to a lesser extent perhaps, guns and ammunition) are going to be looked at by people not by Law Robots. If you say that you meant to kill, rather than to stop the immediate threat, your actions could very well face scrutiny that they otherwise may have avoided. It makes absolutely no sense to choose language that can only hurt you should you ever be faced with a criminal or civil prosecution.

    Worst case - you go to prison for a long time as a "killer." Best case, you spend time and money (and money, and money) defending yourself against charges that could have been lessened or made to go away entirely if you weren't so quick to spout out how you "intended to kill" to anyone who would listen.

    Also, caliber and weapon choice have been shown to influence a jury in at least one case. Read Ayoob - he has an incredible library of cases where folks who should or could have escaped criminal conviction DID NOT, and went to jail even though their shootings were - all other things aside - justifiable. Cocking the hammer on a double action revolver, for example, contributed to one man going to prison...you just never know, so for cryin' out loud eliminate all the questionable things (like saying you meant to kill) from your routine.

    Lastly, you generally have no legal responsibility to aid ANYONE, much less someone who just tried to kill you. Unless you are a doctor/paramedic/EMT (and then, only maybe) will you be required to render aid, and even then only if it is safe to do so, and only within the limits of your training and abilities.

    And Gator, to answer your question - if you want the Kel Tec, get it. Load it with high quality expanding ammunition (similar to that used by almost every law enforcement agency in the country) that feeds reliably and that you can shoot well. Then, practice, and don't worry about your choice of weapon/ammo.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    You NEVER shoot to kill
    Then your weapon should stay in it's holster. If the situation is bad enough that you have to draw your weapon you should be prepared to bring that situation to a quick resolution. And, unless you are The Lone Ranger, it's not wise to try shooting to wound or maybe the gun from the bad guy's hand.
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatorsmash View Post
    I wasn't 100% sure, but after a debate on another forum i was worried that using magsafe could be considered premeditated.
    With all the respect due such claims: malarkey.

    I think ahead (premeditate) on the risks, challenges and responsibilities surrounding providing for my own security, and for that of my family. Our lives are infinitely more valuable (to us) than any BG, particularly when a BG is attempting to take everything we've got.

    I think ahead (premeditate) on various situations and suitable tactics, so that I can escape alive.

    I think ahead (premeditate) as to what the most expeditious methods might be for terminating a threat. It's incidental to the BG's chosen line of work that his life hangs in the balance due to his stupid, illegal, immoral and unsustainable choice of vocation. That is not my problem. My problem is to escape alive. If that ends up with one BG toes-up in the gutter ... so be it.

    I think ahead on all those things. I thank the gods that I am able to do this reasonably well, at least within the constraints I have. With the training I do, I hope it's enough.

    Reality? Your purpose in any attempt to take the last thing you have (your life) is to terminate the threat. That may well mean one daisy-pushing biped over yonder. Would you prefer that be you? No? Then, accept that you will have done your job passably well if you're able to walk home that night, after the clean-up is done. Make it happen exactly that way. Your family deserves no less.

    NONE of this has anything to do with caliber, or with a given manufacturer's brand name, or a style of commonly-accepted defensive ammunition. (Well, that's not entirely true, as noted above, but it's darned near so.) Pick your choices, become competent with them, responsibly and competently carry your defensive tools, and be honorable in how you apply force in situations demanding it.

    At least, that's the way I see it. YMMV.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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  12. #12
    Ex Member Array Yoda's Avatar
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    These "legal" discussions have occurred many times on this forum, do a search and read the plethora of discussions on this matter.

    One of the things that the moderators do is look for things like the word "kill" as we do not advertise illegal actions on this forum. To some it may seem like semantics but I can assure you if you are on the defense, the words used by you will be much more than just semantics. I work in the forensic field and right now I am serving on a Grand Jury so I know how the prosecutors work and think, just as I do most civil attorneys. I will frequently advise attorneys on certain matters that are in my realm of expertise.

    You want to stop the threat in self defense, it may turn out to be fatal and that is unfortunate but that was the BG's choice when he committed his crime.

    As responsible self defenders we do not want to plan to "Kill" another human, that would be premeditated.

  13. #13
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    Obviously, every action and word at a trial would be under careful consideration of the advice of a good lawyer.

  14. #14
    Senior Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatorsmash View Post
    I specifically didnt get a keltec because of there inability to shoot magsafe, but after reading some things i worry about the legality of carrying with it. Being new to shooting, i have no idea on ammo types or anything like that. Right now at the range i have been shooting PNC bronze, but i feel like i should be storing / carrying with something "better".
    Welcome!

    A couple things.

    First, being that you are in Florida, I would recommend that you set out immediately to obtain a copy of Florida Firearms by Jon Gutmacher. Mr. Gutmacher is an attorney and an avid shooter. He really understands this stuff from both the legal perspective and the point of view of the armed citizen. He breaks down the law in clear, easily understood language with plenty of footnotes.

    You can get a copy here: ORLANDO CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY | AGGRAVATED BATTERY DEFENSE LAWYER JON H. GUTMACHER, Esq.

    As for ammunition restrictions in Florida, the following are prohibited:
    • Armor piercing handgun ammo with a steel (or equivalent) core.
    • Exploding ammunition containing an explosive or flammable agent in the projectile
    • "Dragon's Breath" shotgun shells
    • Bolo style shotgun shells (2 or more projectiles connected with a wire)
    • Flechette rounds


    Magsafe is lawful for sale and carry in Florida. Whether or not it actually works as well as advertised is a topic for a different thread.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  15. #15
    Senior Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    And, technically, I did premeditate. I premeditated to kill anybody that I feel is a threat of life or grave bodily injury to myself or to any other persons, which I am justified by the law to do.
    That kind of talk can turn a justified shooting into a prison term.

    In actually, you have premeditated to stop a threat using a reasonable degree of force up to and including deadly force.

    You're not shooting to kill - you're shooting (if it comes to that) to stop a threat. When the threat stops, so does the shooting.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

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