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This is a discussion on +p+ within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ok so i have decided that i wanted to get Winchester Ranger 9mm +p+, but am wondering about over penetration with that round. I mean ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Hydrashok Glock's Avatar
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    +p+

    Ok so i have decided that i wanted to get Winchester Ranger 9mm +p+, but am wondering about over penetration with that round. I mean the 9mm overpenetrates with ball but what about with that hollow point? Thanks
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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array AZ Husker's Avatar
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    That's a hot round. You need to evaluate the situations it will be used in. Here in Phoenix, you'd probably blow right through someone. In Minnesota where they wear 12" of clothing, it might just be the ticket. I've shot them, they are no fun. They are much harder to bring down for a quick second or third shot.
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    Senior Member Array rolyat63's Avatar
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    Without addressing the round but the fear or concern of over penetration I recommend a round that can accurately place on target with the best weight:velocity combination to propel it through clothes, skin, fat, bone(s), organs and finally the CNS (hopefully). If it fall out his butt or lands where the misses went has to be considered but if you are already shooting then you have decided the backstop or lack there of is not problematic. The text below is extracted from a document, Handgun Wounding Factors and effectiveness, that is the result of the Firearms Training Unit at the FBI research. It is the short and sweet of it but the document is a good read if you 20-30 minutes. I have it in PDF if you would like a copy drop me a PM.


    Extract from HWFE
    An issue that must be addressed is the fear of over penetration widely expressed on the part of law enforcement. The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated. Any review of law enforcement shootings will reveal that the great majority of shots fired by officers do not hit any subjects at all. It should be obvious that the relatively few shots that do hit a subject are not somehow more dangerous to bystanders than the shots that miss the subject entirely.

    Also, a bullet that completely penetrates a subject will give up a great deal of energy doing so. The skin on the exit side of the body is tough and flexible. Experiments have shown that it has the same resistance to bullet passage as approximately four inches of muscle tissue.
    rolyat63
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    Senior Member Array Hydrashok Glock's Avatar
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    Wow very informitive. Thanks
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    Distinguished Member Array Rcher's Avatar
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    A steady diet of +p+ ammo is not recommended for any handgun that I'm aware of . Typically, hot ammo like this will most likely shorten the mechanical values of the firearm significantly. Personally, standard factory ammo should be enough for any personal encounter.

    >>---->
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    VIP Member Array AZ Husker's Avatar
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    Don't forget to change your recoil spring to make up for the additional kick!
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    Member Array ispcapt's Avatar
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    The 115 +P+ W-W rd was developed by my agency working with Winchester. We carried it for several years and I investigated several shootings where it was used. It's very effective and served us very well for the time we carried it.
    You don't have to worry about overpenetration with it. It doesn't penetrate enough for the FBI and according to their range officers at the time it can't be an effective rd on the street. Didn't matter that our agency and a whole lot of others using the same rd had very good service from it. It didn't matter to the FBI because it didn't meet their majical 12" of penetration in gello.
    As rolyat63 referenced overpenetration and hitting a bystander is really a non-issue. In both LEO and non-LEO encounters a lot more rds are fired than hit. It runs about 20% hits. That means out of 10 rds fired that 8 won't have hit the intended target. The 2 that hit where they were intended is a lot less of a concern than where did the other 8 go. They ended up somewhere that was not intended.
    183 FBINA

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    Senior Member Array High Altitude's Avatar
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    It has a good reputation in use.

    I also don't bother with over penetration of JHP bullets too much since most of your shots most likely won't even hit your target.

    I carry HST 147gr in 9mm.

    From what I have seen it has good expansition and penetration.

    I would rather a round expend 80% of its energy, expand and fully penetrate then a round expend 100% of its energy, expand but only penetrate 4-5 inches.


    Pick a modern offering that works in your gun and practice hitting your target and call it a day.

    I would carry any gold dot, ranger or HST from 115-147g and feel just as good.

    HST
    Works in my firearms 100% so far
    Good ballistic test results
    $20/box of 50
    From what I have heard, actual shootings with modern 147g bullets are positive.
    Standard pressure, less recoil, faster follow up shots.

    Works for me!

  10. #9
    Senior Member Array Hydrashok Glock's Avatar
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    Thanks guys really helpfull. Yah i guess i did forget to think about the statistics about how many are missed in the encounter. Thanks and i appreciate the added confidence
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    Member Array ispcapt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by High Altitude View Post
    .
    Pick a modern offering that works in your gun and practice hitting your target and call it a day.
    This advice from High Altitude is as good as it gets.
    Pick a defensive round from any of the major manufacturers that is 100% reliable in your gun and shoots where your sights are regulated and then practice.
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    VIP Member Array AZ Husker's Avatar
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    Man, you guys talking about "don't worry about it since most of your shots won't hit the target" scare the hell out of me. I realize it's true, especially with police officers. I was one for 20 years and have never seen such a bad group of marksmen. That's why the Glock was invented. The PD shootings where 40 rounds missed their intended target and head off into someone's neighborhood are a shameful example of the poor requirements of a person to wear a badge. Notice I didn't say poor training, because usually it is there and available. I mean the poor attitude and lack of care that most cops have concerning their shooting skills and even care of their weapons.
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    Senior Member Array rolyat63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ispcapt View Post
    The 115 +P+ W-W rd was developed by my agency working with Winchester. We carried it for several years and I investigated several shootings where it was used. It's very effective and served us very well for the time we carried it.
    You don't have to worry about overpenetration with it. It doesn't penetrate enough for the FBI and according to their range officers at the time it can't be an effective rd on the street. Didn't matter that our agency and a whole lot of others using the same rd had very good service from it. It didn't matter to the FBI because it didn't meet their majical 12" of penetration in gello.
    As rolyat63 referenced overpenetration and hitting a bystander is really a non-issue. In both LEO and non-LEO encounters a lot more rds are fired than hit. It runs about 20% hits. That means out of 10 rds fired that 8 won't have hit the intended target. The 2 that hit where they were intended is a lot less of a concern than where did the other 8 go. They ended up somewhere that was not intended.
    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Husker View Post
    Man, you guys talking about "don't worry about it since most of your shots won't hit the target" scare the hell out of me. I realize it's true, especially with police officers. I was one for 20 years and have never seen such a bad group of marksmen. That's why the Glock was invented. The PD shootings where 40 rounds missed their intended target and head off into someone's neighborhood are a shameful example of the poor requirements of a person to wear a badge. Notice I didn't say poor training, because usually it is there and available. I mean the poor attitude and lack of care that most cops have concerning their shooting skills and even care of their weapons.
    AZ Husker your quote is not out of context but NOT a quote from this thread. After reading your post I thought I had missed something but the only place the word "worry" was used is in ispcapt's post but that was in reference to the particular round in question. Maybe you were paraphrasing but then it would be out of context as I read it and in the post I made on the subject. Even if the stats were inverted where only two rounds missed and 8 hit. Those two would be significantly more problematic than the other 8 as they would have expended most if not all of their energy in the BG IF they do over penetrate. Heck, unless the shooter were perfect even 1 rd missing the BG at full velocity is to be considered heavily.
    rolyat63
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  14. #13
    Senior Member Array Hydrashok Glock's Avatar
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    I feel like such an idiot. Actually what is funny is me and my buddy talked about that yesterday. I know of many cops that get nervous before their qualifications and/or dont have any fimilararity with any other firearms. It is not that i not worried about missing because at TDI they impressed about knowing where your rounds go because it is an average of $10k in litigation costs per round. I am not trying to cop bash becasuse i know of many police officers who find it of up most imortance but hindsight there are many who self proclaime as not "gun guys." The way me and my buddy disgussed it as it would be like becoming a race car driver but being scared of going over 100mph, or not caring to know about the car.
    Sorry about my lack of thought there for a moment and dont think poorly of me.
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    Member Array ispcapt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Husker View Post
    Man, you guys talking about "don't worry about it since most of your shots won't hit the target" scare the hell out of me.
    Read the entire post and what it was in reference to then maybe you won't be so scared. You've obviously missed the crux of the post and information being provided.
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  16. #15
    VIP Member Array AZ Husker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ispcapt View Post
    In both LEO and non-LEO encounters a lot more rds are fired than hit. It runs about 20% hits. That means out of 10 rds fired that 8 won't have hit the intended target.
    Those eight missed rounds are gonna end up someplace, and quite often there are way more than 10 shots fired. Pretty sad statement as to the professionalism of paid protectors! I know priorities have changed since I was in, but with today's liability lawsuits, I'd think LEO departments would be very concerned about a 20% hit ratio.
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