January 17th, 2006 11:49 AM
Originally Posted by RSSZ
Ya got me but it will never go away either..
im surprised the Term Street Sweeper did go away
January 17th, 2006 12:49 PM
A small addition here from a post on another board - ref' the old Glaser round - might be of interest to include as it suggests rather ineffectual results.
Firearms Tactical Institute
Work of the U.S. Government; not subject to copyright in the United States.
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U.S. Department of Justice
Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK
FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT
July 14, 1989
From page 5:
Mechanics of Handgun Wounding
All handgun wounds will combine the components of penetration, permanent cavity, and temporary cavity to a greater or lesser degree. Fragmentation, on the other hand, does not reliably occur in handgun wounds due to the relatively low velocities of handgun bullets. Fragmentation occurs reliably in high velocity projectile wounds (impact velocity in excess of 2000 feet per second) inflicted by soft or hollow point bullets.10 In such a case, the permanent cavity is stretched so far, and so fast, that tearing and rupturing can occur in tissues surrounding the wound channel which were weakened by fragmentation damage.11,12 It can significantly increase damage13 in rifle bullet wounds.
Since the highest handgun velocities generally do not exceed 1400-1500 feet per second (fps) at the muzzle, reliable fragmentation could only be achieved by constructing a bullet so frangible as to eliminate any reasonable penetration. Unfortunately, such a bullet will break up too fast to penetrate to vital organs. The best example is the Glaser Safety Slug, a projectile designed to break up on impact and generate a large but shallow temporary cavity. Fackler, when asked to estimate the survival time of someone shot in the front mid-abdomen with a Glaser slug, responded, "About three days, and the cause of death would be peritonitis."14 (My emphasis - SS.) In cases where some fragmentation has occurred in handgun wounds, the bullet fragments are generally found within one centimeter of the permanent cavity. "The velocity of pistol bullets, even of the new high-velocity loadings, is insufficient to cause the shedding of lead fragments seen with rifle bullets."15 It is obvious that any additional wounding effect caused by such fragmentation in a handgun wound is inconsequential.
Of the remaining factors, temporary cavity is frequently, and grossly, overrated as a wounding factor when analyzing wounds.16 Nevertheless, historically it has been used in some cases as the primary means of assessing the wounding effectiveness of bullets.
Dr. Fackler, a former U.S. Military trauma surgeon, is one of the foremost wound experts in the world. Duncan MacPherson is a real rocket scientist who worked with Dr. Fackler on the math / physics behind the wounding mechanisms that Dr. Fackler observed in his medical practice. MacPherson wrote THE seminal text on the subject, Bullet Penetration Modeling the Dynamics and Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma. I finally got a copy. It's a mathematically rigerous study, and tough reading for someone who graduated from engineering school in 1965. Basically it discounts most of what we read from the gun magazines, and debunks "kinetic energy dump", "hydrostatic shock", Taylor K.O. formula, Sanow's works. All the relatively easy-to- understand intuitive stuff.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
January 17th, 2006 12:56 PM
1952 - 2006
They'll never understand that assault is a behavior, not a device.
Originally Posted by RSSZ
Incidently, I have an original Winchester Black Talon bullet that I fired new into wet newspaper, recovered the bullet, noted a lack of any deformation, reloaded it and fired it again with the same result. Other Talon rounds expanded as advertised. Just goes to show it's not the bullet. It's where you place it that counts.
Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences
"I like when the enemy shoots at me; then I know where the ******** are and can kill them."
DE OPPRESSO LIBER
January 17th, 2006 03:45 PM
P95, Your above post is exactly the reason why I am content with a bullet that will penetrate deep and streight. I hate them birdshot bullets. I feel that I can control shot placement well enough to keep the GG's out of a reasonable ammount of danger. Other than that, they better not stand their with their mouth open. -------
January 18th, 2006 02:20 PM
Sufficient speed and sufficient resistance to deformation (really fast and moderately hard) are the only things that will defeat body armor. The teflon coating used on the tungsten AP handgun rounds was to lessen wear on the barrels, not to aid in penetrating body armor. Teflon coating on bullets has also been used to aid in penetrating glass. Seems it keeps a bullet from deflecting off a glass surface.
But almost any centerfire rifle cartridge will penetrate soft body armor.
January 18th, 2006 05:46 PM
I still carry BT's in my Kimber 45 ,Fight crime shoot first. Skip
January 18th, 2006 06:24 PM
January 18th, 2006 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by AutoFan
FWIW-Aramid can also be defeated by a cutting bullet,i.e. TUBULAR.
January 18th, 2006 07:09 PM
Negative...vests work through friction, anything that reduces friction will assist in penetrating a vest. Some buddies and I obtained a couple out dated, trade in vests and tried some ideas, using identical 9mm bullets one with “modifications” one out of box. Several of our ideas worked to varying degrees up to and including defeating the level II vests. Remember deformation increases resistance/friction, so yes hardness is one factor in defeating a vest, I won’t go into detail on an open forum on what defeated the vests.
Sufficient speed and sufficient resistance to deformation (really fast and moderately hard) are the only things that will defeat body armor.
January 22nd, 2006 10:20 PM
Oh yeah, there are things that will AID in defeating soft body armor, like the geometry of the bullet, for instance, but it still has to be going fast, and it still can't easily deform. Also remember that testing you do on outdated traded in vests may not be representative of current, in specification vests. Body armor has an expiration date (for a good reason).
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