Defective ammo alert!!!!

Defective ammo alert!!!!

This is a discussion on Defective ammo alert!!!! within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; MAGTECH All calibers but specifically 9mm and 38sp. I have been having "light strike" issues with MagTech ball ammo in 38sp resulting in misfires specifically ...

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Thread: Defective ammo alert!!!!

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation Defective ammo alert!!!!

    MAGTECH All calibers but specifically 9mm and 38sp.

    I have been having "light strike" issues with MagTech ball ammo in 38sp resulting in misfires specifically in my 38 sp M642 for the last year. In every box I have had at least one failure to ignite the primer or misfire.

    I recently wrote MagTech a letter of complaint on this but have been completely ignored.

    Yesterday, I took a ccw student to my favorite range, American Range & Gun Shop for the final phase of the class range qualification (to MY standards, which are tougher than state law). To be fair, my client had progressed beautifully and this was our 2nd or 3rd time to the range (at his request for which I was paid). The range has a relationship with MagTech and they buy the ammo by the pallet load. They also sell other brands at the range, but MagTech is the one costing less.

    I reviewed my student on the techniques I wanted him to demonstrate: Failure to stop drill and the nearly identical Mozambique drill (differences in the times shots are delivered). He was delivering a Mozambique when the SQUIB occurred. It's supposed to go WHAM WHAM WHAM (2 COM and one to the cranial vault rapid fire no pauses).

    This went: WHAM, squizzel WHAM and the slide on my personal Sig P226 BLACKWATER edition locked back so hard it was jammed. Then I looked down the slide and the bore and saw the telltale BULGE. Crap. Somehow the squib had managed to be strong enough to cycle the action yet weak enough to let the round "stick" in the barrel (possibly enough carbon provided the friction to stop the projectile?). Then he was following the pace of the sequence and tapped the next full power load in the chamber. Only the strength of the Sig prevented a tragedy. So we packed up and I took the gun across the street to a good 'smith whom I also use as an FFL transfer agent. He said he'd check out the weapon and let me know the verdict.

    Bottom line: A new barrel is about $200. Cracked slide is of course more and a cracked FRAME is a new gun. My client squirmed about replacing a top of the line Sig, but he'll do a barrel and or slide. It was MY fault for letting him use my best gun. But I have never in all my life had a squib in a factory load. Although I should have been warned from the misfires in 38sp. My lesson is this: Never again will my client shoot any of my guns. They can rent a firearm at that range.

    I am considering other courses of action, especially if my gun is totaled. One is approaching MagTech to replace the gun and anticipating that they'll say NO, moving up the line to have their product labelled as "unsafe" or not recommended, perhaps by the NRA since I was conducting an NRA class. Something along those lines. Maybe I can find a lawyer that's also a shooter and will file a lawsuit for a new gun plus punitive damages (for a lack of good QC) and attorney's fees. Then I could replace the P226 and afford to either buy high quality ammo or another Sig, this one for my daughter.

    Does anybody have any other ideas?
    Last edited by ExSoldier; February 8th, 2009 at 01:41 PM. Reason: Add a little content of explanation
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.


  2. #2
    Member Array kingdaddyoh's Avatar
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    Are you asking your client to pay for the repair?
    Last edited by kingdaddyoh; February 8th, 2009 at 01:51 PM. Reason: spelling

  3. #3
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    Hi Ex. Sorry to hear that.

    MagTech ammo is manufactured in Brazil so it's probably going to be next to impossible to sue them or get any sort of compensation from them.

    ~~~~~~~
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation Yep but he's squirming...

    Quote Originally Posted by kingdaddyoh View Post
    Are you asking your client to pay for the repair?
    Yeah, I did. First thing. He agreed but grumbled. Like most really rich guys, he's tightfisted where there is no direct benefit to HIM. But he won't screw me over (I think). He did go right ahead and buy a Sig P226 Blackwater Edition for himself. On the spot from the gun range which is also a gun store. He paid $1035 + tax.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  5. #5
    Member Array showmebob's Avatar
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    If you did your job and instructed your student about how to handle a squib round, then it is more his fault than anyones. If you didn't instruct adequately, then it is more your fault. If you were having so many problems with Magtech, why were you using/allowing this ammo to be used, in your gun? Were you gambling on light strikes/ squibs to save a few bucks?
    I have never had problems with Magtech ammo myself. If i did, I don't think I would risk it in my gun regardless of who was shooting it. Talk to Magtech and see if they will volunteer to help you. If they don't, live and learn. Attorneys fees are stiff and I bet you will lose in court.

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Wink If I were a democrat, I might try this..... (don't worry, I'm not & I won't)

    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Hi Ex. Sorry to hear that.

    MagTech ammo is manufactured in Brazil so it's probably going to be next to impossible to sue them or get any sort of compensation from them.

    ~~~~~~~
    If I was in a mood to cut off my nose to spite my face, I might could take this to the Congress and they could just stop them from selling a defective and dangerous product in this country. I'm sure they would be happy to help me out. But tempting as that might be, I AIN'T STUPID. So, no. ~SIGH~
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Haven't had any issues in the past 2yrs of shooting several hundred 9mm Magtech "range" rounds in my CZ P-01 and a few dozen .380ACP Magtech "First Defense" solid copper rounds in my NAA Guardian 380. Not enough for knowing for certain, in either case, but a data point none the less.

    I have noticed some light primer strikes from a KelTec PF9, but that spreads across several different rounds, not just the 9mm Magtech "range" rounds I've put through it. In this case, it's almost certainly the gun.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  8. #8
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Unhappy ouch!

    Quote Originally Posted by showmebob View Post
    If you did your job and instructed your student about how to handle a squib round, then it is more his fault than anyones. If you didn't instruct adequately, then it is more your fault. If you were having so many problems with Magtech, why were you using/allowing this ammo to be used, in your gun? Were you gambling on light strikes/ squibs to save a few bucks?
    I have never had problems with Magtech ammo myself. If i did, I don't think I would risk it in my gun regardless of who was shooting it. Talk to Magtech and see if they will volunteer to help you. If they don't, live and learn. Attorneys fees are stiff and I bet you will lose in court.
    I'd never had a squib round from any factory brand. That has usually been a problem with reloads. I did instruct but he was in a sequence of firing and it was simply an act of God. Therein lies my lawsuit result. You're right, I'd lose in court but there are other routes I could take. Magtech is the preferred round used by the gun range itself. If you ask for ammo and don't specify another brand (assuming they have it onsite) you get magtech. As you said I taught myself an expensive lesson.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  9. #9
    Member Array showmebob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    I'd never had a squib round from any factory brand. That has usually been a problem with reloads. I did instruct but he was in a sequence of firing and it was simply an act of God. Therein lies my lawsuit result. You're right, I'd lose in court but there are other routes I could take. Magtech is the preferred round used by the gun range itself. If you ask for ammo and don't specify another brand (assuming they have it onsite) you get magtech. As you said I taught myself an expensive lesson.
    Best of luck to you whichever route you decide to pursue!

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array Yoda's Avatar
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    If you choose to pursue this you must leave and preserve the Sig in its damaged condition and preserve the box of magtechs you were using. If an atty gets involved they will have to bring in Sig and Magtech and then you would want a joint inspection between your expert and experts from Sig and Magtech. Depending on the findings the experts will likely not agree it was Magtechs or Sigs problem as the cause and so it will need to be taken before a civil court. In the unusual case it is clear and obvious as to the cause, you may get a settlement in your favor.

    I am not an attorney but have been through this process many times as an expert. The expense and hassle usually takes this route out of question. Even if you get an attorney that would take this on a lien, the expert will need to be paid. Your expert would cost more than a new gun with no guarantee of recovery.
    Yoda, I am, yes.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I gotta say this I have had a few squibs in my day and no matter how fast I'm shooting I can tell the difference in recoil etc. and stop firing immediately.I understand he's a student but there may be times your going for a double tap that you see movement or something doesn't sound right that you don't shoot the next round,sounds like poor shooting control to me.
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  12. #12
    Member Array stoprilshoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    Never again will my client shoot any of my guns.

    good call!







    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    But he won't screw me over (I think). He did go right ahead and buy a Sig P226 Blackwater Edition for himself. On the spot from the gun range which is also a gun store. He paid $1035 + tax.

    hee, hee,

    sounds like he already did. sound like he should have been buying you that sig.


    LMAO!


    thats what i always do after i tear something high dollar of somebodys up. go buy me one. works for me!



  13. #13
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    +1 on yoda's post... usually contacting the ammo manufacturer with photos of what happened and a subtle threat to go public with the results will get their attention; also going after the distributor (whom I can assure you is in the United States) is another option. I remember back in the mid 1980s, I had a barrel simply come off of a S&W 19 and blow out the cylinder from a double-charged nyclad round I had fired at the range. Luckily, i had just purchased the ammo and had the receipt, box and everything, including a very shaken gun shop owner who had sols me the ammo. he immediately contacted the federal distributor who took the ammo and sent it back to the factory. About 2 weeks later, I heard from Federal, the guy apologized profusely for the whole incident, and directed me to go back to the shop where I purchased the ammo.

    Waiting there was a brand new model 19 and 1000 rounds of ammo......

    So stick to your guns, Magtech can ill afford word going round about Kabooms ocurring with their ammo.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  14. #14
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    I believe that ExSoldier stated that the shooter was delivering a Mozambique & the second tap was the squib round.

    I personally would not have been able to catch or react to a first or second shot squib doing a Mozambique drill.

    If the squib cartridge case ejects and the next round chambers then it just happens too fast and #3 (for sure) is going to follow down the pipe.

    Then it's Hurry Up & Grab The BUG time.



    Quote Originally Posted by showmebob View Post
    If you did your job and instructed your student about how to handle a squib round, then it is more his fault than anyones. If you didn't instruct adequately, then it is more your fault. If you were having so many problems with Magtech, why were you using/allowing this ammo to be used, in your gun? Were you gambling on light strikes/ squibs to save a few bucks?
    I have never had problems with Magtech ammo myself. If i did, I don't think I would risk it in my gun regardless of who was shooting it. Talk to Magtech and see if they will volunteer to help you. If they don't, live and learn. Attorneys fees are stiff and I bet you will lose in court.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  15. #15
    Member Array sharpetop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    If you choose to pursue this you must leave and preserve the Sig in its damaged condition and preserve the box of magtechs you were using. If an atty gets involved they will have to bring in Sig and Magtech and then you would want a joint inspection between your expert and experts from Sig and Magtech. Depending on the findings the experts will likely not agree it was Magtechs or Sigs problem as the cause and so it will need to be taken before a civil court. In the unusual case it is clear and obvious as to the cause, you may get a settlement in your favor.

    I am not an attorney but have been through this process many times as an expert. The expense and hassle usually takes this route out of question. Even if you get an attorney that would take this on a lien, the expert will need to be paid. Your expert would cost more than a new gun with no guarantee of recovery.
    I too, am with Yoda. Magtech, if you can ever get ahold of them, will want the lot number and/or the remaining rounds from the box you were shooting. A call to Sig is also in order. They will probably want to check the firearm for any defects to cover their butt legally. They may also help you go after Magtech if, in fact, it was bad ammo.

    Good luck

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