Surplus brass to be mutilated? (Merged X3)

This is a discussion on Surplus brass to be mutilated? (Merged X3) within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; At this point, I don't know what to think. Although, if it were a hoax...wouldn't it have been an interesting experiment from the other side ...

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Thread: Surplus brass to be mutilated? (Merged X3)

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    At this point, I don't know what to think. Although, if it were a hoax...wouldn't it have been an interesting experiment from the other side to see how we all reacted? Sort of like testing the waters...
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

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  3. #32
    Distinguished Member Array Colin's Avatar
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    I would not be surprised if they launched a "trial ballon" to see what happens, having it shot to pieces hopefully will send a message, as long as you that such a policy actualy happened. If you cry wolf to often, well you know the story...

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Well I got an email back from Georgia Arms. It contained 3 attachments. The first one was a copy of the letter posted earlier, but it is in reference to a specific auction number 7084-6200.

    The second is a letter that states brass will be classified as Demil code B. But the way I read it Demil code B doesn't require mutilation.
    Here is a link to the dla's chart on demil codes.

    http://www.dla.mil/dlaps/dod/416021m1/app3.pdf

    The third attachment is just the letter to all concerned requesting you write your congressmen.

    Based on the fact that there are still auctions up showing mutilation not being required on expended brass on the gov liquidation site, I am calling BS on this one now.

    Yep for some reason they may have required it for the one auction which has since passed I guess, but others current auctions are not worded that way.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  5. #34
    VIP Member Array Patti's Avatar
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    I received an e-mail from Georgia Arms:

    To our Valued Customers,

    Effective 3/12/09 DOD Surplus, LLC is requiring the mutilation of all spent shell casings. This, of course is designed to prevent the recycling of these cases. This creates a situation that would appear to be the opposite of what our national focus is reported to be. As we are asked to recycle and move to GREEN products on one hand, we are being instructed to destroy this brass rather than recycle it on the other. First, this decreases the value of this surplus product to the government by about 80%, wasting revenue that we desperately need in these economically stressed times. Second, destroying this brass creates a huge expenditure of energy to resmelt, realloy, restamp and redraw this now unusable product to make it usable again. How is that going green and how does that benefit anyone? Third, it puts unnecessary economic stress on our job market. There is no question that this new policy will result in layoffs to some of our employees. I believe our goal should be to create more jobs, not more unemployment. This is not to mention the obvious We all need to contact our represenatives and let them know how destructive this new directive is to our economy.

    We are evaluating our present inventory of 223,308 brass to determine how best to supply these ammunitions to orders on hand as far back as 10/08. We will advise you, our customer, this week on website & through email our decisions on future sale, shipments.

    Thanks

    Georgia Arms



    Below are two emails that we received from DOD (Department of Defense):



    Dear Valued Customer:

    Please take a moment to note important changes set forth by the Defense Logistics Agency:

    Recently it has been determined that fired munitions of all calibers, shapes and sizes have been designated to be Demil code B. As a result and in conjunction with DLA's current Demil code B policy, this notice will serve as official notification which requires Scrap Venture (SV) to implement mutilation as a condition of sale for all sales of fired munitions effective immediately. This notice also requires SV to immediately cease delivery of any fired munitions that have been recently sold or on active term contracts, unless the material has been mutilated prior to sale or SV personnel can attest to the mutilation after delivery. A certificate of destruction is required in either case.

    Thank you,

    DOD Surplus
    15051 N Kierland Blvd # 300
    Scottsdale, AZ 85254



    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    March 12, 2009



    Georgia Arms

    PO Box 238

    Villa Rica, GA 30180

    Re: Event 7084-6200:

    Effective immediately DOD Surplus, LLC, will be implementing new requirements for mutilation of fired shell casings. The new DRMS requirement calls for DOD Surplus personnel to witness the mutilation of the property and sign the Certificate of Destruction. Mutilation of the property can be done at the DRMO, if permitted by the Government, or it may be mutilated at a site chosen by the buyer. Mutilation means that the property will be destroyed to the extent prevents its reuse or reconstruction. DOD Surplus personnel will determine when property has been sufficiently mutilated to meet the requirements of the Government.

    If you do not agree with the new conditions of your spot sale, please sign the appropriate box provided below stating that you do not agree to the new terms and would like to cancel your purchase effective immediately. If you do agree to the new terms please sign in the appropriate box provided below to acknowledge your understanding and agreement with the new requirements relating to your purchase. Fax the signed document back to (480) 367-1450, emailed responses are not acceptable.



    Please respond to this request no later than close of business Monday, March 16th, 2009.

    Sincerely,

    Government Liquidation.
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Winston Churchill

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Well I got an email back from Georgia Arms. It contained 3 attachments. The first one was a copy of the letter posted earlier, but it is in reference to a specific auction number 7084-6200.

    The second is a letter that states brass will be classified as Demil code B. But the way I read it Demil code B doesn't require mutilation.
    Here is a link to the dla's chart on demil codes.

    http://www.dla.mil/dlaps/dod/416021m1/app3.pdf

    The third attachment is just the letter to all concerned requesting you write your congressmen.

    Based on the fact that there are still auctions up showing mutilation not being required on expended brass on the gov liquidation site, I am calling BS on this one now.

    Yep for some reason they may have required it for the one auction which has since passed I guess, but others current auctions are not worded that way.
    +1

    DEMILITARIZATION CODES

    B MLI (Non-SME) -- Demilitarization not required. Trade Security Controls required at disposition.
    https://www.drms.dla.mil/ops/conting...%20700_144.pdf

    Page 31 (g):

    g. “Trade security controls” is control procedures designed to preclude the sale or shipment of Munitions List or
    Commerce Control List items to any entity whose interests are inimical to those of the United States. These controls
    are also applicable to such other selected entities as may be designated by the Deputy Under Secretary of Defense
    (Trade Security Policy).
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array cvhoss's Avatar
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    Here's a listing for a lot for auction at Government Liquidation. Take note of the part I highlighted.
    LOT (37, 655 LBS)APPROX SMALL CALIBER FIRED BRASS INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO (12, 850 LBS )5. 56 MM , (4, 063 LBS)9MM BALL EXPENDED, (8, 389 LBS)7. 62 MM, (4, 906 LBS)50 CALIBER. STORED IN 11, 8' CONTAINERS. WEIGHT OF CONTAINERS IS INCLUDED IN THE WEIGHT AND SALE. ALL SCRAP IN THIS SALE REQUIRES MUTILATION BY THE BUYER PRIOR TO REMOVAL IF ALLOWED BY THE INSTALLATION OR MUTILATION MUST BE WITNESSED AND CERTIFIED BY DOD SURPLUS PERSONNEL AT ANOTHER FACILITY. THE TITLE TO THE MATERIAL DOES NOT PASS TO THE BUYER UNTIL THE SCRAP HAS BEEN MUTILATED. BUYER AGREES TO ALLOW USG PERSONNEL TO WITNESS DESTRUCTION. WILL LOAD FLATBED ONLY.
    Also found this in a government publication at another site:
    • DEMIL Code B Munitions List Items (MLI) Trade Security Controls (TSC) required at disposition.
    • In addition to the DEMIL code of B or Q all materiel has an assigned IC. The IC determines the validity of the DEMIL code. IC 3 requires worldwide mutilation of the materiel, IC 6 only requires mutilation when the materiel is located overseas.
    So it could very well be the IC that is determining that munitions must be mutilated but I can't find anything that specifies the IC for munitions.

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  8. #37
    Senior Member Array dunndw's Avatar
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    Found this over on AR15.com
    Originally Posted By Epic_Ed:
    .... The facts as I know them, which come directly from candid discussions with my CEO, indicate the following:

    - Prior to 11/2008, Demil B items required no mutilation for sale to the public. That policy changed in November, but several exceptions were granted. Expended munitions brass was one of those given a waiver.

    - Enter the new administration. Since Demil B category items had been given a broad, general label as "national security sensitive" someone above the DRMS (likely in the DLA) reviewed the policy and immediately went with a CYA policy and yanked all exemptions. No thoughts or considerations were given to the implications of this policy change, but this directive was issued to DOD Surplus effective immediately last week.

    - **** storm blows up as a result. In particular, the letters, phone calls, and emails to our legislators, the media, and anyone else who would listen caused this policy to be review post haste.

    - As of this morning our company was informed that expended munitions brass will now be reclassified as Demil Q –– which requires no mutilation unless sold to a foreign country.


    There you have it. The policy change was simply the result of some n00b administrator attempting to close a perceived "national security" loophole and brass got caught up in the snare. There was no political motivation behind the policy change, but it is good that people like us were suspicious, got involved, and helped bring about a resolution.

    Ed
    "If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Ok, so why does this auction for 26,000 lbs of brass not require mutilation.

    0001 - Uncategorized at Government Liquidation

    Or this one that is for 50,000 lbs including brass, exclude the brass be mutilated.

    0001 - Uncategorized at Government Liquidation

    Someone check, but I think that Georgia Arms has removed the great big red warning sign off thier initial page.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  10. #39
    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
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    It would appear that DoD has reversed their position.

    Exposing the GovCrims pays off

    Quote Originally Posted by JPFO
    Dear MSSA Friends,

    I just received a phone call from the office of U.S. Senator tester of Montana to inform me that at 5:15 (EST) today a letter cosigned by Senator tester (D-MT) and Senator Baucus (D-MT) was faxed to the Department of Defense asking DoD to reverse its new policy requiring destruction of fired military cartridge brass. At 5:30, I am told, tester's office received a fax back from DoD saying that the brass destruction policy IS reversed.

    Others report to me that they are already seeing evidence of this on the Websites of entities that liquidate surplus DoD commodities.

    Our thanks go out to Senator tester and Senator Baucus, and their staff, for getting on this problem promptly and making the reversal happen

    Staff for tester and Baucus promise they will get me the documentation for this reversal tomorrow morning. I'll forward that when I get it.

    Best wishes,

    Gary Marbut, president
    Montana Shooting Sports Association
    Montana Shooting Sports Association
    author, Gun Laws of Montana
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  11. #40
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    eschew obfuscation

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  12. #41
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    I think this is a "trial ballon" sent up by the Obamessiah and his cohorts to "test the waters".

    Make no mistake about it, when they feel they can, he and his cohorts will do as much damage to our country and way of life that they can.

    So far we've seen Vets "take it" with the new policy, they've tested the waters on an Assault Weapon Ban, this DOD decision and wanting to cease allowing pilots of commercial aircraft fly armed if they so choose to. Make no mistake about it, this Administration is out for your guns any way they can get them.

    I just hope and pray that the damage they do while they are in office isn't so great that it can't be reversed, but that's like trying to urinate up a rope. We need to remain vigilant and fight them tooth and nail at every turn because there will be no second chance.

    I never thought I'd see the country I love so dearly turn this bad. I really didn't think we were that intellectually deficient.

    Biker

  13. #42
    New Member Array kkolodsick's Avatar
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    Don't know if anyone has heard but I got an email from Georgia Arms today saying that the brass will continue as it has always been. No mutiliation here.

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