Excessive force? - Page 2

Excessive force?

This is a discussion on Excessive force? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by joelg Defense attorneys [and others] need to be educated as to the reason ... And the people carrying firearms need to be ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joelg View Post
    Defense attorneys [and others] need to be educated as to the reason ...
    And the people carrying firearms need to be educated as to the old saying, "The less attention you attract, the less attention you attract..."


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array AZ Desertrat's Avatar
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    Agreed, Semper Paratus (from a USCG vet)
    "The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government--lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." --Patrick Henry

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  3. #18
    Member Array XDFender's Avatar
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    There really are two answers to the question:

    First, the actual, correct, legal answer--which will vary some depending upon the jurisdiction but in most cases boils down to whether or not "deadly force" was justified. If deadly force was justified, then technically, it matters not whether that force was meted out with a bare hand, a rock, a baseball bat, a pistol, shotgun, cannon, or by dunking the ******* in hydrochloric acid. There is just one level of force in use, "deadly."

    Now, the practical answer: Any prosecutor who chooses to do so can (except in those jurisdictions with good laws protecting those who defend themselves) overcharge and then make emotional appeals to a jury that legally are irrelevant but will, nonetheless, be played out. A savvy defense attorney would object continuously to such a line of questioning, because it truly is irrelevant; but the likelihood that your use of a "hand cannon" instead of a "normal defensive firearm" would come out in the testimony and used in an attempt to sway a jury is quite high--far more so in any civil trial that would arise.

  4. #19
    Ex Member Array United93's Avatar
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    If you use .454 loads, the problems are a large, heavy gun, lots of recoil, small capacity, and overpenetration. If you use .45 loads, the problems are a large, heavy gun, and small capacity. If it is all you have, go ahead. However, IMO, it is not the best choice by a long shot.

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Does anyone actually believe that the prosecutor may be a well intentioned guy who upon seeing a police report in which someone was carrying a .454 might think to himself, "Oh my Jesus. This guy is insane. He's more of a danger to the community than anyone who would rob him...I could understand a .45ACP, I carry one myself...but holy marry mother of god christ the lord...No...I don't think I'll be believing the victim on this one...I think the guy who purportedly robbed him actually did something, what I'm not sure...but the guy with the elephant gun probably over reacted..."

    It's not always "oh...gotta get the people with guns...all guns bad...all of them...hate guns..."

    A lot of them, judges & prosecutors, are well intentioned people who want to stop dangerous people. Did you ever think that your conduct could make them view YOU as a person just as dangerous as the criminals?

  6. #21
    Member Array IronMike's Avatar
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    Just asking,aint carried yet.It still is one of if not the only gun that dosent feel like a waterpistol in my big paws.It also seems that some members here the main question.Why is a 12ga slug ok,but a .454 considered excessive?
    It is pardonable to be defeated but never surprised.
    2 Ruger alaskan .454s
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  7. #22
    Distinguished Member Array phreddy's Avatar
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    The problem lies in the personal views of the prosecutor and the jury. I think when NC passes the Castle doctorine, anti-gun prosecutors will have less influence with their personal views.

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Does anyone actually believe that the prosecutor may be a well intentioned guy who upon seeing a police report in which someone was carrying a .454 might think to himself, "Oh my Jesus. This guy is insane. He's more of a danger to the community than anyone who would rob him.
    Not I. But then, there are plenty who are not so well-intentioned.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  9. #24
    Member Array Chroode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinistrMalic View Post
    In AZ if the homicide was justified then the method that took is not an issue. If it was not justified to pull the trigger the caliber wouldn't matter either.

    Choose a round and a gun that makes sense to you and that you can effectively defend yourself and others with. Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by XDFender View Post
    There really are two answers to the question:

    First, the actual, correct, legal answer--which will vary some depending upon the jurisdiction but in most cases boils down to whether or not "deadly force" was justified. If deadly force was justified, then technically, it matters not whether that force was meted out with a bare hand, a rock, a baseball bat, a pistol, shotgun, cannon, or by dunking the ******* in hydrochloric acid. There is just one level of force in use, "deadly."
    Now, the practical answer: Any prosecutor who chooses to do so can (except in those jurisdictions with good laws protecting those who defend themselves) overcharge and then make emotional appeals to a jury that legally are irrelevant but will, nonetheless, be played out. A savvy defense attorney would object continuously to such a line of questioning, because it truly is irrelevant; but the likelihood that your use of a "hand cannon" instead of a "normal defensive firearm" would come out in the testimony and used in an attempt to sway a jury is quite high--far more so in any civil trial that would arise.
    There is no safe bullet, no "just wanted to injure him" bullet. If you have a class III license and have justification for deadly force, wip out that machine gun and light him/her up. Caliber doesn't matter. Collateral damage however does. Use the appropriate bullet wt/gr. to help ensure you don't overpenetrate.

    Utilize sites like these to give you an idea on how your bullet choice performs:

    Brass Fetcher Ballistic Gelatin testing

    Brass Fetcher Ballistic testing

    The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration testing

    Bullet results after firing -Scroll to bottom for other bullet tests.

  10. #25
    Member Array Randy McElroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronMike View Post
    Just asking,aint carried yet.It still is one of if not the only gun that dosent feel like a waterpistol in my big paws.It also seems that some members here the main question.Why is a 12ga slug ok,but a .454 considered excessive?
    I think the .454 is too dangerous for the rest of the people that may be around if you need to fire off a few rounds.

    When you first mentioned the 12 gauge, you didn't say anything about a slug. A slug is not ok. A slug puts your neighbors at risk.

    ccw9mm gave you a wonderful answer. Read post #10.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post

    Home vs. Street. That's very different. In your home, your back is to the wall, so to speak. And a shotgun is seen as a defensive weapon appropriate for those situations. But, carrying a gun around "amongst us" is something different. People aren't going to be to appreciative of a portable land canon being concealed in their midst.

    Good luck with whatever you decide.

    Randy

  11. #26
    Senior Member Array itschuck's Avatar
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    I would be more concerned about the eventual civil case that arises..so why give them an excuse to take all your hard earned possesions??
    Current collection: Too many according to the wife...

  12. #27
    Member Array Chroode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy McElroy View Post
    When you first mentioned the 12 gauge, you didn't say anything about a slug. A slug is not ok. A slug puts your neighbors at risk.

    Randy
    It seems everything puts your neighbors at risk.


    The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 1

    Lessons learned:
    1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

    So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.

    The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads.

    The slug penetrated all 12 boards.

  13. #28
    Member Array IronMike's Avatar
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    Ok,Ok,Ok,I give up,I promise I will not carry the only pistol that truly fits my hand.

    May you live forever.(Leonidies)
    It is pardonable to be defeated but never surprised.
    2 Ruger alaskan .454s
    Ruger P95
    Rem 870
    Barrett .50BMG

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronMike View Post
    ... my .454 ...
    Quote Originally Posted by IronMike View Post
    Ok,Ok,Ok,I give up,I promise I will not carry the only pistol that truly fits my hand.
    Nobody is suggesting that, though you seem to have inferred it. The suggestion was, basically: that .454 is going to be seen by many as overkill, and that this impression could do you no good in a court room.

    You didn't specify the particular gun in question, but I highly doubt that planet Earth has a single firearm that fits your hand. Grips are interchangeable, after all. There are a few .454 platforms made, and a couple of those (at least) support other cartridges. Same ergonomics, different caliber.

    For example, Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan, in .44 magnum. Or, the Taurus Raging Bull series of guns.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    Two words: Over penetration.
    A 454 would be over kill and would be dangerous to bystanders. It can penetrate walls and kill or injure neighbors. It would be the perfect gun if your in bear country.

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