Excessive force? - Page 3

Excessive force?

This is a discussion on Excessive force? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The Alaskan is/was my weapon of chioce. The question is why 12ga OK /.454 Bad I swear I am not being condecending but that is ...

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Thread: Excessive force?

  1. #31
    Member Array IronMike's Avatar
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    Mar 2009
    Eastern NC
    The Alaskan is/was my weapon of chioce.
    The question is why 12ga OK /.454 Bad
    I swear I am not being condecending but that is as simple as I can ask the question.
    It is pardonable to be defeated but never surprised.
    2 Ruger alaskan .454s
    Ruger P95
    Rem 870
    Barrett .50BMG

  2. #32
    Distinguished Member Array Rugergirl's Avatar
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    Jan 2009
    Quote Originally Posted by IronMike View Post
    The Alaskan is/was my weapon of chioce.
    The question is why 12ga OK /.454 Bad
    I swear I am not being condecending but that is as simple as I can ask the question.
    In my mind you should carry whatever you can conceal, whatever you feel comfortable firing and what you are most accurate with.
    It's your life you are protecting after-all.
    I myself like shooting big powerful revolvers, but at 5'4" and 125 lbs,concealing and carrying one can be impossible.
    However is the time ever came that you had to use it I would be concerned first about overpenetration and secondly what the jury might think if there were charges filed.
    A jury of your peers is not often made up of people who believe in the RTKBA, or folks who appreciate the things most of us here know and love.
    It's a hard decision to make, and one I can't make for you, but I can understand your point here, easily.
    Stay safe
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Aug 2007
    I don't post here anymore...Sorry
    Because society accepts different things per different circumstances.

    If someone is coming up the stairs of your house after breaking in, nobody is likely to question your choice of weapon, be it a shotgun with 000 buck, 10mm pistol or a M1A loaded with 110 Grain 7.62x51mm TAP round.

    It's in your house. Generally speaking, if someone brings the fight to your door, how you answer is rather open, even in more restrictive states.

    When you are out and about...things are different. Society generally expects you to attempt to deescalate and evade danger, and when you engage, to use the least amount of force required. It also expects your response not to put those around you in danger.

    So, while using a light weight .308 round from an M1A, a load of 000 buck or even a Slug on a guy in your house is something that doesn't really raise an eyebrow...

    Using a handgun of equivalent power while out and about does.

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  5. #34
    Member Array Randy McElroy's Avatar
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    May 2008
    Quote Originally Posted by Chroode View Post
    It seems everything puts your neighbors at risk.

    The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 1

    Lessons learned:
    1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

    So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.

    The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads.

    The slug penetrated all 12 boards.
    My thinking for HD shotgun loads was birdshot since that is what I have handy. Thanks for the link. Here is what it said about using birdshot:
    Birdshot as a Defense Load
    I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

    We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

    A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

    In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

    Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

    But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
    Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

    Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

    When To Use Birdshot
    A friend of AR15.com sends this:

    "I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

    It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'".
    This has me thinking a bit. I still wouldn't recommend .454 though.


  6. #35
    Member Array grandma4's Avatar
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    Apr 2009
    I think you are a lot more likely to have to go thru the justice system if it is a shooting on the street verses a home invasion. I surf the net a lot for home intrusion vs self defense anywhere else and it always seems to say "no charges will be brought against the home owner, however, seems that street/parking lot etc. most of them always say, investigation continuing. The cost is so high to have to go thru the system it just wouldn't be worth it to me, to even chance a jury hearing about such a damaging caliber.

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