Best .40 defensive load?

This is a discussion on Best .40 defensive load? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by alan93 Who does?? I would think a distinquished member like your self would know that it's common knowledge, that most defensive shots ...

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Thread: Best .40 defensive load?

  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan93 View Post
    Who does??

    I would think a distinquished member like your self would know that it's common knowledge, that most defensive shots occur at about 5-10ft and that penetration is not the rationale for the shot. Correct me if I'm wrong but the primary reason of shooting someone who has the intention of bringing you grave harm or possibly death is to knock them down with the gunshot. Which means expansion and weight of the round is the key to doing so.

    .40 S&W Winchester 180gr Ranger SXT JHP (Glock 27)
    I couldn't disagree more. No round made for a pistol will knock a man down with the sheer transmitted force; physics do not allow that.

    YouTube - Bullet Proof vest test

    YouTube - body armor

    Watch those videos and you will see that "knockdown power" is a myth. The second video especially shows that if a rifle round will not knock someone down, a pistol round certainly will not. It is the dissipation of energy, blood loss, and pain generated that cause the reaction of being "knocked down." Those videos show pretty clearly that it is not knockdown power that counts; it is damage and reaction that count. The only shot that will knock a BG down is a head shot; OTOH a head shot is a very difficult shot under duress.

    The person will fall from shock or by jerking from the pain, but not because of the weight of the round or the energy transfer. That is a hollywood myth. Shot placement is key to inflict maximum damage and generate the best response from the BG.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
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  3. #32
    Member Array johnsonabq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinistrMalic View Post
    I couldn't disagree more. No round made for a pistol will knock a man down with the sheer transmitted force; physics do not allow that.

    YouTube - Bullet Proof vest test

    YouTube - body armor

    Watch those videos and you will see that "knockdown power" is a myth. The second video especially shows that if a rifle round will not knock someone down, a pistol round certainly will not. It is the dissipation of energy, blood loss, and pain generated that cause the reaction of being "knocked down." Those videos show pretty clearly that it is not knockdown power that counts; it is damage and reaction that count. The only shot that will knock a BG down is a head shot; OTOH a head shot is a very difficult shot under duress.

    The person will fall from shock or by jerking from the pain, but not because of the weight of the round or the energy transfer. That is a hollywood myth. Shot placement is key to inflict maximum damage and generate the best response from the BG.
    OK. Point well made. So you think the 135 - 165 grain .40s are a more effective round?
    Jeff
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  4. #33
    Distinguished Member Array Siafu's Avatar
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    I sort of stumbled onto 165 grain Remington Golden Sabers and found that they are really a great SD round. They feed reliably in all my .40's and the price is fair @ $18 for a 25 round box.

    They are a nickel plated case too.

  5. #34
    Member Array alan93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinistrMalic View Post
    I couldn't disagree more. No round made for a pistol will knock a man down with the sheer transmitted force; physics do not allow that.

    YouTube - Bullet Proof vest test

    YouTube - body armor

    Watch those videos and you will see that "knockdown power" is a myth. The second video especially shows that if a rifle round will not knock someone down, a pistol round certainly will not. It is the dissipation of energy, blood loss, and pain generated that cause the reaction of being "knocked down." Those videos show pretty clearly that it is not knockdown power that counts; it is damage and reaction that count. The only shot that will knock a BG down is a head shot; OTOH a head shot is a very difficult shot under duress.

    The person will fall from shock or by jerking from the pain, but not because of the weight of the round or the energy transfer. That is a hollywood myth. Shot placement is key to inflict maximum damage and generate the best response from the BG.
    Ok I am corrected, what I read somewhere else turns out to be not true.
    But the bigger hole is more effective at wounding the human target, but still, other factors are involved..

    From the FBI Firearms Training Unit:

    http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

    If you don't have the patience to read it all you can go to the conclusion on page 19.

  6. #35
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Any good quality hollowpoint will work in a .40 S&W.

    Evan Marshall told me it's hard to find a "bad" load in a .40, and I believe him. With that said, I like the 180 Grain loads myself. They seem to have less muzzle flip than the lighter hotter loads.

    Biker

  7. #36
    Distinguished Member Array Rexster's Avatar
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    The only .40 loads I would avoid would be the reduced-velocity loads that have been marketed, such as one of the Hydra-Shoks. (A 165-grain load, IIRC.) Just to be clear, not ALL .40 Hydra-Shoks are loaded light, and I am not sure if the light load in question is still being marketed. It is a simple matter of consulting the company's ballistics tables.

    I have to agree with Evan Marshall, as mentioned by BikerRN, and I believe Mas Ayoob has stated something similar. Most .40 loads are going to be OK. my agency has standardized on the .40, since 1997, but we still buy our own duty ammo. Bad guys still fall with regularity when shots are placed properly. Gold Dots and Ranger SXT, in the varying weights, are popular. I used to use 165-grain Golden Saber, but the availability situation changed, so I am transitioning to 180-grain Gold Dots. If a future admin type or bean counter mandates that we must use ammo provided by the agency, and they give us FMJ, well, at least it will make bigger holes than .38/.357/9mm FMJ.
    Last edited by Rexster; May 27th, 2009 at 06:17 PM. Reason: typo

  8. #37
    Member Array johnsonabq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rexster View Post
    The only .40 loads I would avoid would be the reduced-velocity loads that have been marketed, such as one of the Hydra-Shoks. (A 165-grain load, IIRC.) Just to be clear, not ALL .40 Hydra-Shoks are loaded light, and I am not sure if the light load in question is still being marketed. It is a simple matter of consulting the company's ballistics tables.

    I have to agree with Evan Marshall, as mentioned by BikerRN, and I believe Mas Ayoob has stated something similar. Most .40 loads are going to be OK. my agency has standardized on the .40, since 1997, but we still buy our own duty ammo. Bad guys still fall with regularity when shots are placed properly. Gold Dots and Ranger SXT, in the varying weights, are popular. I used to use 165-grain Golden Saber, but the availability situation changed, so I am transitioning to 180-grain Gold Dots. If a future admin type or bean counter mandates that we must use ammo provided by the agency, and they give us FMJ, well, at least it will make bigger holes than .38/.357/9mm FMJ.
    I pray that you never get saddled with FMJ to defend your life with a pistol.
    Jeff
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    (my favorite but hard to hide)

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array AllAmerican's Avatar
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    Right now Ive got Magtech Best Defense in the 165gr variety in mine.

    I think its best defense or something like that.
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  10. #39
    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    I really like

    Hornady 180 grain TAP FPD ammo.

    This stuff was amazing when I shot a water melon last time I tested the rounds out. I also shot a pork picnic (raw) and it devastated the meat that was in the freezer for about 2 years I forgot about. I thawed and cooked with my walther.

    I also use Hornady 200gr 45 ACP TAP CQ +P ammo.

    That stuff put my 40cal to shame in the watermelon test. I know you didnt ask for 45 ammo but I thought that Hornady served me well so far in testing. As far as real life application. I pray to the Lord that I will never have to testify of it's actual intended application.
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  11. #40
    Member Array REDTAIL's Avatar
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    I agree with High octane given the ammo situtuation the way it is right now

  12. #41
    Senior Member Array jem102's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsonabq View Post
    There's no such thing as a one shot stop when you double tap!

    I've heard so much on "Stopping Power" that is conflicting that I feel you just have to go with your gut instincts for carry ammo. Just keep practicing so you will put the shots where they need to be and any good quality HP ammo will do the rest.
    Agree with your statement.
    There is only one point to the "one shot stop". That being in a CQB you may well connect with only one round (no matter the range time or skill sets practiced) before it becomes hand to hand or blade to blade (nasty business). I think it wise to research what is available and go with the preponderance of evidence so that one hit, if thats all there is, gives YOU the best chance of going home at the least alive and at worst able to recover.

    Given a choice...shoot em to the ground, take cover/add distance and reload.

  13. #42
    DRT
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntiHerd View Post
    180 grn HST, penetration and expansion.

    +1 The 180gr version performs better than the lighter weight versions.

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