9mm ammo for apartment living? Less over penetration?

This is a discussion on 9mm ammo for apartment living? Less over penetration? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am going to have to agree with EL on the birdshot issue. I have hunted birds for yearts and yes, birdshot will drop them ...

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Thread: 9mm ammo for apartment living? Less over penetration?

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array jeephipwr's Avatar
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    Shotgun

    I am going to have to agree with EL on the birdshot issue. I have hunted birds for yearts and yes, birdshot will drop them but if you look the penetration, most brid shot only penetrates about 1/4 inch of flesh and takes the bird down. Granted, they are shot at a little farther range then a perp would at point blank, but the physics behind the mass of the pellets will show that they lose momentum pretty quick so the distance of a few yards and layers of clothing may make a big difference. I would pick a load no smaller tha #4 to start with and go to 00 with the next shot.

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  3. #17
    Member Array OldDawg's Avatar
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    Euc,

    As far as the Home defense shotgun issue... If encounterd with a hostage situation & I have my Mossberg 590 which is my home defense gun I would just hit the slide release Jack in the next round which is a slug. & use the peep sight to put one into the BGs brain Pan..

    I load all my defensive shotguns with a mix of Buckshot or #7 shot & low recoil slugs ... These leaves me a choice as it is easy to dump a round by ejecting it to get to what is needed
    Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.

  4. #18
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    Nothing is RIGHT or WRONG...Everything is merely TECHNIQUE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    Look let me ask you guys a question or two.

    First, if 20 gauge loaded with birdshot will do the job reliably, then why don't the police and military use it? They use shotguns for the same application a homeowner would. Cops have to operate at ranges far in excess of that found in an apartment and they also have be meet certain state standards.

    I can agree that if we're sub Tueller distances the spread isn't going to be much, but if I were a bettin' man I'd say that the birdshot would make an awful lot of shallow holes. It would look nasty and the guy would probably bleed to death if EMTs weren't present PDQ, but I am dubious it would actually stop someone. I think this is one of those apophrycal tales much like the use of rock salt. At close range I think a load of birdshot would take a man's head clean off.

    Second, how many people use say a .45 caliber pistol with an extended magazine as a home defense gun... quite a few I would imagine. Is that a poor choice? I submit it is not, I use a very similar pistol for my personal defense every day as do many others. The argument has been made that in the area of home defense, the handgun allows you the survival time to reach the shotgun, which has been the priemere tool in this role for over 150 years. I feel well armed with a 45, but I'd feel comfortable with my Benelli 12!

    Now how is a long arm that delivers 2 or 3 times the power a worse choice? The key in an apartment remains overpenetration not just of inside walls wherein the potential victim is a family member but through an outside wall, ceiling or floor to threaten others.

    I'm left scratching my head at this one. 20 gauges for for mutant squirrel attacks.

    I'll pose a final question to you guys: I don't have any one there to worry about but myself. I could probably use the shotgun to great effect. However what happens when you wake up and find a hostage situation? Still feel good about that shotgun? That's easy, dump the shot and load slug. At that range with my Benelli M121 I can't miss!

    I'm not trying to be defeatist, I just don't think that a small bore shotgun loaded with anything but a slug or buckshot is something I want to stake my life on.
    Nobody's asking you to stake YOUR life on this, Euc and nobody is saying you're wrong, either. We're trying to give advice where it was requested within some very narrow parameters.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  5. #19
    Distinguished Member Array AutoFan's Avatar
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    The ol' "M1 Carbine isn't a manstopper" myth. It's a 110 grain, 30 caliber bullet travelling at ~2000 fps out of the muzzle. That's about the same as a 7.62X39 at 100 yards. Or 600 fps faster than a 7.62x25 out of a Tokarev or VZ-52. Or 800 fps faster than any 9mm. And JHP's and softpoints are available from Remington and Federal. What it suffers from is a lack of ammo manufacturers producing loads in the lastest and greatest bullets. Think of the above stats with a DPX from Cor-bon or some similar state of the art bullets.

    Having said that, I remember an article by Chuck Taylor where he tested various popular handgun, rifle and shotgun calibers against interior wall construction. Aside from 22lr, they ALL penetrated several walls. So either don't miss, or have a backstop.

    BTW, every test I've seen on birdshot shows it does not penetrate past 7 inches in bare ballistic gel. Which means a messy wound, but not one that will stop.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Ballistic Gelatin Doesn't Measure ALL the Factors

    Quote Originally Posted by AutoFan
    The ol' "M1 Carbine isn't a manstopper" myth. It's a 110 grain, 30 caliber bullet travelling at ~2000 fps out of the muzzle. That's about the same as a 7.62X39 at 100 yards. Or 600 fps faster than a 7.62x25 out of a Tokarev or VZ-52. Or 800 fps faster than any 9mm. And JHP's and softpoints are available from Remington and Federal. What it suffers from is a lack of ammo manufacturers producing loads in the lastest and greatest bullets. Think of the above stats with a DPX from Cor-bon or some similar state of the art bullets.

    Having said that, I remember an article by Chuck Taylor where he tested various popular handgun, rifle and shotgun calibers against interior wall construction. Aside from 22lr, they ALL penetrated several walls. So either don't miss, or have a backstop.

    BTW, every test I've seen on birdshot shows it does not penetrate past 7 inches in bare ballistic gel. Which means a messy wound, but not one that will stop.
    Bare Ballistic Gel doesn't measure the factor of Shock and I'll bet a faceload of birdshot will induce not only shock but may extract the total life force as a further result. Translation; SHOCK CAN KILL.

    I remember a study on both the Glaser and Magsafe rounds and they didn't penetrate all the way thru any such wall. There's a reason the Sky Marshals are using prefrangible ammo on those aircraft. It doesn't have anything to do with the mythical Goldfinger Factor but rather a concern that some very sensitive backup systems are located in areas vulnerable to the possibility of gunfire.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoFan
    The ol' "M1 Carbine isn't a manstopper" myth. It's a 110 grain, 30 caliber bullet travelling at ~2000 fps out of the muzzle. That's about the same as a 7.62X39 at 100 yards. Or 600 fps faster than a 7.62x25 out of a Tokarev or VZ-52. Or 800 fps faster than any 9mm. And JHP's and softpoints are available from Remington and Federal. What it suffers from is a lack of ammo manufacturers producing loads in the lastest and greatest bullets. Think of the above stats with a DPX from Cor-bon or some similar state of the art bullets.
    I have never seen 30 carbine in any other configuration than military "Ball Ammo." 110gr ball round at 2000fps is going to punch a nice neat little hole all the way thru a human target! That's not a myth! I have spoken to a lot of Korean War and WWII vets who say they'd rather use a baseball bat than the M1 carbine. Now of course that's using the ball ammo. But as I mentioned I've never seen any JHP or Soft Nose ammo. Note, too that in military ball ammo configuration, the 9mm stats drop drastically. That's the source of the original 9mm controversy: The 9x19 was originally developed for use in the German submachine guns like the MP40 series. The arguments tended to indicate that certainly the 9mm is lethal and has racked up impressive stats, when there's a mag full into each person, of course it going to have fatal consequences! The stats on a shot by shot basis were very different.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Okay, mixing slugs into your shotgun I have to admit is a good idea if you're going to use a shotgun, but I personally don't trust myself to do it. Since mixing in a slug shows contigency based thinking anyway, consider this the very real possibility of having to fire twice or three times even with the powerful 12 gauge at your disposal. If your mind is so serene, so well trained, you can drown out the god awful noise that's going to make not to mention the sound of your own heartbeat and focus on what exactly is going into that chamber, I envy you for you are a better man than I. I'd be scared to death I was going to die and firing at the threat until it stopped personally. Being able to count shots in an actual fight is debatable, heck even the pros load tracers at the bottom of their magazines so they can see they're about to run out, being able to keep a mental inventory of what you have and have not fired would be an amazing feat. Not saying it's impossible, just that I doubt my own ability to do it.

    I don't like the idea of not being 100% sure what's going to come out of there, and I really don't like the idea of making a nice loud noise as I eject the shotshell to chamber the slug, not to mention the valuable second or fraction of a second lost. If that solves the problem for you great, personally I don't like surprises.

    I favor every round loaded in a defensive gun being the same as I favor every trigger pull/firing cycle being the same. I like knowing what I'm about to do and what's about to happen. I like practicing it so much I can do it when I'm moving, in the dark, without thinking about it. I don't want to have to fumble with a weapon or to hesitate, as a matter of fact I think my mind will be plenty busy scanning my surroundings and I'll be fighting the symptoms of the most intense adrenaline rush I've ever felt in my life. My hands and eyes are going to be on their own to use the weapon effectively by themselves. I want boring and uniform, not a lottery.

    That's why I favor loading whatever gun you think is best with exactly whatever you think will handle the situation to your satisfaction. Stack the deck in your favor as much as possible. If you think you're going to need slugs, why aren't you using slugs? Why is the shot in there at all?

    I personally think that the recipe for success here is hitting accurately while using as few shots as possible. I honestly believe that if we base our ideology around the idea we're going to miss, that's what will happen. I don't think we should discount the notion completely, but we should base our thinking on what is a good tool to neutralize this threat first, and what is least likely to overpenetrate second. The former must dominate the latter.

    Thus I suggest a light rifle round. The M1 Carbine came to mind because it is:

    -Relatively powerful without presenting an penetration hazard.
    -Accurate
    -Easy to use under stress

    I am sure other guns could present interesting possibilities as well, but since we're discussing this one I'll stick to my guns here (figuratively and literally).

    The M1 Carbine reputation for not performing well is due to its use in colder climates especially late in WW2 when our soldiers encountered the phenomenon where the cold would cause the constriction of blood vessels... it has a name just don't remember it not smart enough.

    The ball ammo would indeed sometimes pass through the victim, and punching a hole in somebody is not the best way to stop them. The other part of this equation is that .30 Carbine is often unfairly compared to .30-06, .223, and 7.62 which are proper rifle calibers. When a GI compared the .30 Carbine to his M1 Garand's .30-06, of course the .30 Carbine looked bad in comparison. A more proper comparison might be perhaps to .357 or .44 Magnum or dare I say it even .30-30 out of a lever action carbine.

    If you google the history of the M1 Carbine and its catridge, it was a very special purpose item: a rifle intended to replace a pistol. Normally such a thing is not desirable in and of itself, but in a specialized situation it can be useful.

    The modern .30 Carbine catridge is available in effective loads that would avail anyone who considered it for social use.

    Something about like this would be ideal:

    http://www.winchester.com/products/c...AgQ2FyYmluZQ==

    The energy is considerably more than a handgun, it does not have uncontrollable and unpredictable spread like shot does, and I doubt it would make an exit wound or at least not much of one. It will hit our target hard and not go beyond the target.

    As a matter of fact read the reviews of this ammunition as used by hunters on human sized game:

    http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=470031

    A bit of an apples to oranges comparison granted, but I can't imagine the effect on a human would be much different.

    Now is there a downside to my idea of using a low powered rifle catridge? I'm sure there is. However I see a means of shooting as few times as possible as accurately as possible, which to me is the idea means of avoiding the penetration issue.

  9. #23
    Member Array OldDawg's Avatar
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    Euc,

    All good points, the reason i have alternated loads in the Shotgun is I figure if I need to use it I will probably just let loose on the person with 2 rounds to begin with ( best laid plans ,,, do to Adreneline I would probably let fly with all 8 rounds that are in the tube) If I was able to practice fire control I would effectively be hitting the BG with 9 38 cal bullets & following that up with a 3/4" lead slug. I think that will just about stop any fight,

    My debate of stripping off a round was only thinking about coming on to a hostage situation right away ,, not in the middle of a fire fight. I hope with what training i have done & with my background I would be able to stay kewl enuff to effectively decide the best plan of attack.

    I wish they made a DIAL-A-Gun that would do the job of a top line 1911, 12 gauge shotgun & M4 in one with a selector ,, then I would always have the right firearm for the situation...

    In a hostage situation i want my ACOG w/ my M4,

    Bump in the night i usually have both my 1911 & a shotgun @ hand,

    During the day walking around I have my 1911

    If in my car I have both a 1911 & a mini 14

    I believe I have tried to cover all contigencies as best as possible, But only a real situation ( WHICH I DO NOT WANT) will test my theory.

    SOme great ideas & thought patterns in this thread ... really makes one think...

    Thanks for everyones input.
    Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array '75scout's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that 12 guage slugs will also have the plastic wad flying out at a very high speed. The wad can still seriously injure and possibly even kill the loved one thats been taken hostage.

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
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    After all is said and done, anything that will perferate a bad guy deep enough will zip right through most modern walls.

    I kept a 20 gauge double loaded with #4 buck cocked and locked for my apartment gun in Vincennes. I felt it was more than adequate and the #4 lessened penetration of the walls.

    Doing it again I'd probably use #6 shot. Practically no wall penetration and the ranges at which it was to be used would not give the pellets time to seperate, creating, in effect, a frangible projectile held together by the wad. YMMV, thoughts may differ, etc. But, that's my take on the subject, based on two layers of sheetrock being blasted by various shot at various distances along with testing on saturated newsprint.

    Josh <><

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array cagueits's Avatar
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    I have an idea.

    Just find a demolition crew tearing down a place and ask them to save you a small chunk or two of a wall in whatever material your apartment's exterior wall is made of. Most exterior walls will be wood/brick/concrete. Then find an open range and talk to the range officer on if you could test your ammo for penetration, etc. Take a video camera along, record the event while you test all the ammo you can think of, then let us know what works, oh, and post the video ;)

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the-fly View Post
    my 2 cents: use whatever JHP you like. Apartment walls do very little to stop bullets, so the key is to not miss your bad guy.
    Yes. Two words: sight lines. Practice them, from each room. Know them and love them.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  14. #28
    Member Array Mass-Diver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin View Post
    I'm liking the 20 gauge with birdshot idea. I'll be in a studio apartment probably sleeping in a sleeping bag until my gf comes so we can afford more. There's really no cover or any place to hide so if anyone did break in, I'd really have no choice at all but to defend myself. I'll see what kind of a discount I can get on a mossberg 20 gause when I get there. Thanks guys!

    How about this? Look at the very bottom one

    http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/Specpurp.htm
    Good call on the shotgun. If you are in bad place in your own home, do really want to reley on handgun? A good shotgun will give you a big edge. I've have a couple shells of birdshot loaded in front of some slugs just in case.

  15. #29
    Member Array NaturalSelection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin View Post
    Any other suggestions?
    so long as we're talking about handguns dont worry about over-penetration, as thats a myth anyway. worry more about hitting your target.

    of over-penetration, the fbi says:
    "The fear of over-penetration is a misconception which was created back when law
    enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public resistance to the use of hollow
    point ammunition. In the process, we began to believe it ourselves. First, our
    lawyers are unaware of any successful legal action resulting from the injury of a
    bystander due to a round over-penetrating the subject. We are aware of numerous
    instances of Agents/officers being killed because their round did not penetrate enough
    (Grogan and Dove, for example). Further, if you examine shooting statistics you will
    see that officers hit the subject somewhere around 20-30% of the time. Thus 70-80%
    of the shots fired never hit their intended target, and nobody ever worries about them -
    only the ones that might “overpenetrate” the bad guy. Third, as our testing shows, even
    the most frangible bullets designed specifically for shallow penetration will plug up
    when striking wood or wallboard and then penetrate like full metal jacketed ammunition.

    We are aware of successful legal actions where an innocent party has been struck by a shot
    passing through a wall, but as we have proven, ALL of them will do that."

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalSelection View Post
    so long as we're talking about handguns dont worry about over-penetration, as thats a myth anyway.

    We [the FBI] are aware of successful legal actions where an innocent party has been struck by a shot passing through a wall, but as we have proven, ALL of them will do that."
    In other words: worry about it, since it does happen. Got to love governmental obfuscation and circular arguments.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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