Federal HST vs. Speer Gold Dot difference

This is a discussion on Federal HST vs. Speer Gold Dot difference within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Archie I'm not sure what you mean by that. Yes, the loaded round is longer (taller?) than the bullet portion only. Yes, ...

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Thread: Federal HST vs. Speer Gold Dot difference

  1. #16
    Member Array dbraves8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archie View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by that. Yes, the loaded round is longer (taller?) than the bullet portion only. Yes, one loaded round is longer than the other.No, they are both .356 inches in diameter, nominally. There is some allowance for manufacturing tolerances. (Not that the difference means anything; they get resized to actual bore diameter when fired.) If you mean the walls surrounding the cavity of the hollow point are thicker, that is true. They were designed by different companies (probably different people) to achieve specific design goals.I hadn't compared them before, but now you ask, I've seen this sort of difference before, in other rounds manufactured by other companies. The two bullets - projectiles only - were designed in two difference places. From looking at the shapes, they were designed to achieve much the same results, but with different theories of how to attain those results.Let's start at the beginning:
    Were they both simple cylinders of 100% pure lead, flat on both ends and .356 inches in diameter, they would have to be the same length. Lead cannot be compressed (under normal circumstances) and has a fixed and unchanging weight per volume.
    However, when lead is made into bullets, the conditions change. First, are the two bullets made of the exact same alloy of lead? If one is pure and the other some percentage of tin, antimony or silver (to ward off vampires and werewolves), the volume will change. The same weight of material will take up more or less space, depending on if the alloy has a greater or lesser specific gravity than lead.

    Second, the jacket takes up some volume. Depending on the thickness of the jacket and the alloy of the jacket, the total combined weight of lead (alloy) core and jacket will vary in volume, or space taken up. Since the bullet has to be the same diameter (.356 inches) no matter what, a heavier bullet will be longer, and a bullet of the same weight, but lower specific gravity (less dense) will be longer than another of higher specific gravity.

    Third, depth and shape of cavity defined by the hollow point. The bigger, wider, deeper or more capacious the cavity displaces more material somewhere else.

    Fourth, the shape of the bullet makes a difference. A long, tapering nose sticks out further than a short, wide, highly curved bullet nose. The difference in bullet shape is usually determined by what the designer feels will climb the feed ramp in an autopistol better. (Revolver bullets obviously have much more leeway in this regard.) One wants to design a hollow point so the edge of the hollow point does not catch on the edge of the feed ramp.

    Fifth, seating depth rather clearly changes the overall length of the loaded round. Manufacturers have to choose between crowding the interior of the case and minimizing the powder space, or seating the bullet out where it might rub on the front of the magazine and cause a magazine malfunction. The smaller the space available in the case for powder limits the use of a slower burning powder, and also increases the chamber pressure of any load faster than desired. Depending on how the manufacturer prepares and sizes the cartridge case, the base of the bullet may or may not show on a loaded round. (Usually they do, in my experience.)

    What does all this mean? Simply looking at a loaded round can give some indications of the concepts behind the manufacture, but cannot tell how a particular round will function in a particular pistol. Nor can it tell how a particular round will perform in use. Bullets fired into water perform differently than bullets fired into solid wood and differently than the same bullets fired into tissue.

    Most all commercial loaded ammunition works in pretty much any pistol, gives more than adequate accuracy and suitable performance on target, either game or self-defense. It is not uncommon for a certain load of a certain manufacturer to really shine in a particular example of a certain firearm. That doesn't mean the same combination will perform perfectly in another gun of same make and model. This is an art form, not an exact science.

    If any of this has sounded insulting or denigrating, I do apologize. However, I am of that old school that believes words have meanings. One cannot simply make up new meanings for words and expect others to understand what is meant. I also believe the more one knows about everything, the better one does anything.

    I am also disgusted by the conduct of 'modern education'. But that's another rant for another day.

    WOW very well said and I think answered any questions I have about this issue.

    Thank you sir

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbraves8 View Post
    How many water jugs do I need to fill up in order to make sure i catch the bullet in a jug and it doesnt get lost. Also how far away do I shoot the jugs from. I wish i could shoot the jugs more than once
    I use gallon milk and juice (Sunny D) jugs, from about ten feet away. No matter the distance as long as you use the same distance with each round. Be far away enough not to get soaked HST has a tendency to make jugs explode. Rarely did any round go as far as five jugs. Most rounds will stop in the third or fourth jug. As said though what you will see is NOT be exactly what the rounds will do in tissue. It will give you an idea of how the two compare to each other. That said every test I have seen water, ballistic gel, wax, wet newspaper, wet phone books, wood or through wood, glass and denim the HST always looks exactly the same. As I have said it is the most consistent performing round that I have ever seen. If you like I can post some links of tests done on the HST. But no matter what you read do the reliability test in YOUR gun before carrying it for SD and it does not hurt to do the performance tests at the same time to build confidence that what you carry will do its job.
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  4. #18
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbraves8
    send me that link for all the test that you have links to out there comparing 9mm rounds or any rounds of good self defense ammo.

    Thanks
    Decided to post them here in case anyone else has not seen these before. They are a couple of links I posted on another thread. Federal HST by far out perform every other bullet I have seen and studied. No matter what they are shot through or into hey are the most consistent performing and expanding round available. Before the election Ammunition To Go! used to keep a supply available at decent prices and excellent service. They still seem to get some in when other can't.

    This first set are tests done by LEO and are downloadable PDF files
    Los Angeles County - California
    Riverside - California
    Santa Clara - California
    Fresno County - California
    Kern County - California
    Sacramento County - California
    San Angelo - Texas
    Pierce County Workshop - Washington
    San Diego County Workshop - California
    Portland Police Bureau - Oregon

    The following are links to pages with pics from a two different sites
    ballistics testing - round 1 - varied 9mm JHP's
    ballistics testing - round 2 - varied 9mm JHP's
    ballistics testing - round 3 - varied 9mm JHP's - shooting through tshirts
    ballistics testing - round 5 - comparing 9mm JHP velocities
    ballistics testing - round 6 - Federal HST 9mm vs 45 acp
    ballistics testing - round 7 - shooting through denim - 9 mm, 45 acp, and 357 magnum

    Terminal Ballistics .45 ACP
    Terminal Ballistics 9mm

    There is also a rather informative thread here with pics at Federal HST vs, Hydra-Shock pics

    Below is a pic of my rather meager example of HST compared to some other common SD ammunition
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

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  5. #19
    Member Array johnsonabq's Avatar
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    Very good LongRider! Point made, HST is the best. Got any in .40S&W? I can't find squat.
    Jeff
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    Kimber Ultra Carry II, Glock G23 & G36, Kahr PM9, Winchester 1300 Defender 12gauge pump
    (my favorite but hard to hide)

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    As far as doing your own ballistics test I recommend stuffing wet newspaper into Milk/Water jugs. You only need to fill the first 2 jugs full of newspaper and water, then put 2 regular jugs full of water behind the front 2 jugs. Tape all 4 jugs together and shoot away. I did this and was able to put 3 shots into the jugs and all were recovered in the 3rd jug.

    I did this test a couple of weeks ago with 45 ACP and 9mm. The Federal HST 45 expanded to almost 1" stopping in the 3rd jug after hitting the back of the 3rd jug and putting a crack in the 4th jug. I also tried Hornady TAP 45 and Federal Hydra-shok. The Hornady expanded nice but only about .70". The Federal Hydra-shok was disappointing as I failed to recover both rounds. The only thing i found was the jacket stripped in the 2nd jug, the core kept on going somewhere.
    In 9mm I tried 124gr +P HST, Hydra-shok 147gr, and Speer 124 gr Gold Dot. They all performed similar stopping in the 3rd jug, with the HST (about .67") slightly bigger than the Gold Dot which was slightly bigger than the Hydra-Shok. I just bought some 230gr 45 Ranger-T T-Series and will see how they compare to the HST.

  7. #21
    Member Array dbraves8's Avatar
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    yea the 3 I want to compare is the 9mm hst, speer gold dot, and ranger T
    124+P, 147, and 147+P.

  8. #22
    Member Array jarin12ga's Avatar
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    I like the fast expanding gold dots better.Bigger holes are better!They have a good street rep to.I like the winchester sxt because they penatrate like hell.Men come in all sizes.Big and fat!Gold dots still rock!

  9. #23
    DRT
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    If you want 'bigholes' then chose HST as it outclasses Gold Dot, especially after heavy clothing.

  10. #24
    New Member Array Dunedain's Avatar
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    Both are excellent, but you have got to like how the HST rounds so consistently expand very well in any caliber I have seen tested. :)

  11. #25
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRT View Post
    If you want 'bigholes' then chose HST as it outclasses Gold Dot, especially after heavy clothing.
    Completely incorrect


    The biggest difference that I would take serious note of is the consistent expansion of the gold dot as opposed to the HST in testing in gelatin and denim.

  12. #26
    New Member Array Dunedain's Avatar
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    And being bonded, the Gold Dots hold up especially well through barriers. Just in case...

  13. #27
    Senior Member Array Tzadik's Avatar
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    The biggest difference I see is that I can consistantly find Gold Dot, but not HST.

  14. #28
    Distinguished Member Array Doghandler's Avatar
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    I think we should rename "Defensive Ammo and Ballistics" to "Ask Archie".

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array hogdaddy's Avatar
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    Gold Dot For Me, Can find 50 Rnd boxes @ same price as 20 rnd, Plus they work in ALL my guns ; )
    H/D
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  16. #30
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Edit,
    Crap looks like I already posted most of those links already, did not re read the entire thread before posting. What a dork, anyway leaving it as there are a few new ones if you are interested. If not ignore the post

    Quote Originally Posted by Dunedain View Post
    Both are excellent, but you have got to like how the HST rounds so consistently expand very well in any caliber I have seen tested. :)
    Agree 100%. Based on my personal testing through layers of clothing, plywood, sheet rock, and the published results of independent tests done by a number of police departments from around the country. Here are the PDF files of the reports from various PD around the country from ATK Law Enforcement. ATK, Federal and Speer parent company sponsored the test but the PD's did the actual testing and reports.
    Butte - Montana 5-27-09
    Fort Collins 6-26-08
    Aurora 6-24-08
    Los Angeles County - California 7-30-07
    Riverside - California 7-12-07
    Santa Clara - California 5-8-07
    Fresno County - California 5-9-07
    Kern County - California 5-10-07
    Sacramento County - California 5-24-07
    San Angelo - Texas 3-9-06
    Pierce County Workshop - Washington 11-19-03
    San Diego County Workshop - California 10-2-03
    Portland Police Bureau - Oregon 9-6-02
    The test mirrored my own. All 200 rounds of 230 grain .45 HST consistently expanded to the diameter of a quarter with six wicked petals no matter what I shot it into or through. I have not seen any credible verifiable reports that contradict the above reports or my own observation. IMHO if you doubt the veracity of any of those tests or even if you don't, do your own tests. After all it is you life that is on the line. You need to be confident that your ammo will function as expected out of the gun you intend to use it in. Even the best ammo does not perform the same in every gun. So be sure it works in yours.
    Last edited by LongRider; March 5th, 2012 at 09:48 AM. Reason: Redundant links ........
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