JHP vs Hardball

This is a discussion on JHP vs Hardball within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Tom G If there is any chance of a hard ball slug passing through the intended person and hitting an innocent victim, ...

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Thread: JHP vs Hardball

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom G View Post
    If there is any chance of a hard ball slug passing through the intended person and hitting an innocent victim, I do not want them in my gun except for target shooting.
    There is also a chance of a JHP exiting the intended person and striking an innocent person. Now what to use?
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array mech1369dlw's Avatar
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    The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, about the use of JHP during armed conflicts. If the using nations in a conflict have signed on to it, they are prohibited. If they haven't, or the other country uses them first, then all bets are off.
    A person is justified in the use of deadly force, if such person reasonably believes deadly force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to such person or a third person.

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    There is no mention of jacket hollow point ammunition or bullets anywhere in the Hague Convention. Furthermore, the US never signed it.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Laws of War :
    Declaration on the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body; July 29, 1899

    The Undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments,

    Inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868,

    Declare as follows:

    The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body,

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    I don't see any language specifically naming jacketed hollow point bullets as was stated above. Do you?
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array bbqgrill's Avatar
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    Here is a great link to law.yale.edu where in the following statement is made:

    The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.
    By my understanding this would exclude JHP in war as the core is not entirely covered, this also by my reading excludes any and all semi jacketed bullets.

    That said, for defensive purposes use what you like; for me that is JHP projectiles
    "To believe that social reforms can eradicate evil altogether is to forget that evil is a protean creature, forever assuming a new shape when deprived of an old one." - SAT

    Never argue with an idiot - they'll bring you down to their level then beat you with experience.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Tubby45 - you're kidding, right?

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Nope. I'm dead serious. No where does it state you can't use JHP ammunition. There are plenty of FMJ type bullets that easily flatten against the body or expand but those are still "allowed".
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  10. #24
    Member Array gotammo's Avatar
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    if a HP gets the end filled and doesn't expand you got HB.

    Don't worry about the lawyers no matter what you do you were wrong in their eyes as far as what the LEO use the ones around here carry Hydrojunks and I won't carry them.

    If asked if you were trying to kill the BG say you were protecting everyone else as HP tend to stop in the intended targets

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array Ragin Cajun's Avatar
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    Here is a simple comparision:
    If you have a bullet (FMJ) that pencils through a target, it might disrupt the vital organs and kill the target. If it makes a nice round hole it will cause bleeding but not the amount of bleeding that will be causeed by a larger, much more jagged object.

    The HP is designed to expand causing a lot more disruption to the area it hits, tearing it up, and causing more bleeding. With either, shot placement is the key. IMO, If a bullet only penetrates 10 inches but did massive damage to the organs it hits, that is better then a perfectly round hole the size of the bullet through and through. I think any deer hunter who doesn't like to track deer will agree.

  12. #26
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    Seriously, Tubby, that is a deeply, deeply flawed argument. That's like saying a rule that states "you aren't allowed to drive any cars" doesn't apply to you, because you drive a Ford Pinto and the rule doesn't specifically state that you can't drive Ford Pintos. A JHP round is clearly a round that "expands easily in the human body," that is, after all, it's whole point. To argue otherwise is, well, silly.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  13. #27
    Member Array homepcmd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Seriously, Tubby, that is a deeply, deeply flawed argument. That's like saying a rule that states "you aren't allowed to drive any cars" doesn't apply to you, because you drive a Ford Pinto and the rule doesn't specifically state that you can't drive Ford Pintos. A JHP round is clearly a round that "expands easily in the human body," that is, after all, it's whole point. To argue otherwise is, well, silly.
    Actually it IS a point worth arguing.

    There is no mention of JHP since is was not in great use.

    Hornady is controlled expansion and one could be used.

    EFMJ and variants are a good example. Is Powerball one or the other?

    Remember... "expands easily" means what exactly?

    What you perceive or what you can argue and defend when confronted.

    And when shot... against a hard target... how can somebody argue what kind of ammo was used?

    55-77 grain ammo would break up or fragment and does as much damage as any JHP.

    And we "agree" without signing it. And in forth gen warfare... what "country" are we fighting now that we need to worry about the Hogue?
    “We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm” - George Orwell

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    Sorry for this one, but to be brutally honest, I couldn't give a flyin' crap about over penetration of HB.....I wan't penetration and stopping power, that's why I use Cal .45 ACP Hard Ball....if it's good enough for them (US Special Forces) it's good enough for me.....that's it.

  15. #29
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    There is no way that one can reasonably argue that JHP (or similar)rounds do not "easily expand." That is their reason for existence, their primary selling point, and the single biggest thing that differentiates them from JHP (aka non-expanding ammo.

    Specific enumeration in the law is not a requirement - can you kill someone by shoving Beenie Babies down their throat because this particular form of murder isn't specifically articulated in the laws against murder? Of course not. This "argument" is just as dumb.

    Keep in mind that I'm not debating the merits of the accords, our participation in them, or their relevance to modern (or any) combat. I'm just saying that JHP rounds (and similar) ARE covered by the language of the accord, and quite obviously so.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    The OTM bullets, essentially the term used for JHP in the civilian world are used by the military. These would violate the HA, nonetheless they are allowed.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

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