JHP vs Hardball
This is a discussion on JHP vs Hardball within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I realize this debate is like the "Mary Ann or Ginger" debate, its never ending. SO can anyone point me to a current study of ...
June 13th, 2009 10:05 AM
JHP vs Hardball
I realize this debate is like the "Mary Ann or Ginger" debate, its never ending. SO can anyone point me to a current study of the penetration effectiveness of JHP vs hardball for SD carry. I hear of JHP losing effectiveness from the cavity filling up with fabric (not many BG's get shot committing a crime while nekkid), compared to HB. As to over penetration, I've read reports that HB if not stopped in the bullet receiver, is found within a couple of feet if not inches of the bullet catcher. You need not worry about the innocent bystander 2 blocks away getting hit with a pass through round. Once again bullet placement is the important thing in an engagement. I understand that LEO carries JHP for duty ammo. If in a court of law on the stand, what do you say when the prosecuting attorney says "You intended to kill that defenseless criminal trying to rob you. Your use of (insert your favorite name brand JHP here) is proof of ill intent. If you state that LEO carries that same round, he then asks if your are LEO. Since your not you must think you are or you have taken the law into your own hands. The use of HB removes that point of attack. SO the question remains that while you must always be ready to answer for your use of a weapon in self defense, would HB give you better defense in court, or less defense on the street? Is over penetration by HB really that severe that it removes it from the viable round category?
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June 13th, 2009 01:18 PM
I guess that's why you should get a lawyer who is familiar with defending clients in a self defense shooting incident.
June 13th, 2009 02:05 PM
Today's improved design JHP penetrates enough to stop BG's and doesn't fail to expand through clothing. Physics tells us with a greater and semi flat frontal area it will slow down faster than hardball. There are tests that show hardball penetrating 25+" thru gelatin - don't know if that will result in the bullet stopping inches or feet from bad guy, but I'll stick with my JHP's. The larger, flat, and knarly frontal area, after expansion, will do more damage than a slick FMJ so, hopefully, I have to shoot less.
June 13th, 2009 02:14 PM
I believe that the situation that you 'choose' to become involved in has more to do with your going to court than whether or not you use 'hollow points. OMO
Defending yourself because of a 'love triangle' that takes place in your home?
Defending yourself because of the masked dirtbag in a hoodie who tries to take your wallet in a Wally World parking lot?
In either case, you made the decision to defend yourself because your life was in danger, both could be a righteous purpose for the use of a firearm...the DA may not see it that way (that includes the jury, too).
An 'anti-gun' prosecutor can/will probably do any/one/all/more of the following:
-You're bigger than the BG who pulled a knife on you
-You used a semi-auto weapon
-You used hollow points
-You didn't use hollow points...you wanted suffering
-You belong to a gun forum
-Especially...what you said, or didn't say to the police at the scene
This is why it is extremely important after a self-defense incident that you remain calm (good luck), be polite and cooperative (up to a point) with the police, but have an attorney do your talking for you.
I believe that you need to take the following two 30-min vids and watch them. An hour of your time is a lot cheaper than any scenario involving a 'self-defense' scenario you may have to 'dig' yourself out of...
"Don't Talk to the Police" by Professor James Duane
"Don't Talk to the Police" by Officer George Bruch
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June 13th, 2009 03:03 PM
There is HP ammo now that has been specifically designed so that the hollow cavity will not fill with clothing.
That having been said if I personally owned a semi-auto that would only feed hardball reliably, I would only stoke it with hardball until a good gunsmith tuned it and gave it a "street reliability" job.
Personally I believe that carrying ammunition that is approved or mandated for local LEO carry is no legal disadvantage & possibly a small advantage.
That is just my personal opinion.
I would stay away from any ammunition named Devastator, Eliminator, Predator, or Annihilator or the like for obvious reasons.
June 14th, 2009 12:56 AM
It's pretty black and white to me.
FMJ = Practice
JHP = Self Defense
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June 14th, 2009 01:49 AM
I use the Federal Expanding Point Full Metal Jacket, which is essentially a hollow point with a silicon ball in the cavity, which is then covered by the jacket. It certainly won't fill with clothing, and the silicon ball forces expansion. MY reason for using it is that while if expands like a hollow point, it feeds like hardball. No trouble with feeding at all.
June 14th, 2009 01:58 AM
FMJ's are designed to give the most shock possible in order to incapacitate the attacker as quick as possible.
FMJ's are primarily designed as military rounds, since the Geneva Convention prohibits the use of JHP rounds.
There are some areas of the country that forbid the use of JHP's. In which case you will be carrying FMJ's like it or not.
FMJ's are deadly and if must carry them or they happen to be all you have available when you need to defend yourself, rest assured the BG will be just as dead if you do your part, as they would if you used JHP's.
If you have the choice always go for high quality JHP's. Find ones that work reliably in you weapon and shot them enough to know you can shoot them well. Otherwise, load up with FMJ's when going to the range. FMJ's are almost always much cheaper than JHP's, too.
June 14th, 2009 02:55 AM
Hornady Critical Defense is what I use.
"I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, you can't prove anything!" Bart Simpson
June 14th, 2009 06:56 AM
Here you will find a wealth of information concerning the use of or not to use JHP ammo. Of course depending on your caliber and its slow or fast fps may determin if it matters.
The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration testing
Never argue with an idiot. They'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
June 14th, 2009 08:51 AM
It depends on the size of the bullet. My personal opinion is that I would only carryFMJ in something small ,like a 9mm,as a last resort. In something a bit larger,like a .40, it would be a bit better. In a .45 better yet.
As you can tell, I prefer my "bad guys" with LARGE HOLES in them.
June 14th, 2009 06:18 PM
Gee, Stormtruck, couldn't you find a larger can of worms?
FMJ vs. JHP
Ammunition vs. Prosecutors
Maryanne vs. Ginger
Where to start?
First off, a self-defense arm must function reliably. So, whatever ammo one chooses - or is reduced to, or issued, or mandated by other means or forces - has to function in the handgun chosen. If the only gun one has only functions with FMJ, or if statute confines one to FMJ, it sounds like FMJ is a good idea.
Back in the day, .357 Magnum loaded with full charge 158 grain SWC ammo was known for over penetration. Enough over to present serious danger to folks down range. This probably isn't as big a problem anymore with the subcalibers commonly carried in 'modern' times, but there are legitimate concerns. Clean misses carry a good way as well - hence my development of the term 'lawsuit range'; as in, "Effective range is about 50 meters, but lawsuit range is about six blocks."
What about the prosecutor seizing on my choice of ammunition? What about it? Was it a good shoot or not? Can one show a 'reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm' or not? If one can demonstrate that fear, the shooting is justified and ammo doesn't matter. Okay, there are some jurisdictions (NYC and Chicago come to mind) where the city authorities maintain an attitude wherein criminal activity is part of the economy and regular citizens are expected to be victims, but those are the exception. (And in the words of Jack Nicholson's Joker, "Why would decent people live in Gotham City?")
It is possible the civil trial lawyer will attempt to make an issue of ammunition choice. These days, 'wrongful death' lawsuits are commonplace. One needs a competent attorney and a counter suit to deal with such. (Your Honor, since that villain attacked me and I was forced to use lethal force, I can't sleep at night...")
I prefer cast lead SWC bullets with large flat fronts. They tend to penetrate sufficiently, create a serious wound channel instead of sliding through and work in most decent pistols and all revolvers. And, if anyone asks, they are 'target ammo'.
In any event, one must choose to either submit to the illegal assault, or defend one's self and possibly suffer the consequences.
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June 14th, 2009 09:43 PM
Oh lets see.....
Worst case scenario with your JHP, it fills up and performs like FMJ.
Best case scenario with your FMJ...... it performs like FMJ!
The purpose of JHP ammo is not to inflict the maximum possible damage. It is to maximize the chances of the round stopping in its intended target and not striking people or property after exiting the target. It's characteristic expansion and subsequent energy dump is actually a safety feature. The reason you use it is minimize the chances of innocent bystanders being injured.
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June 14th, 2009 10:49 PM
If there is any chance of a hard ball slug passing through the intended person and hitting an innocent victim, I do not want them in my gun except for target shooting.
June 14th, 2009 10:52 PM
Overpenetration was brought into the mix by police agencies that wanted to use JHP ammo for it's expansion capabilities and needed to persuade the powers that be to allow them to switch to JHP. They said ball ammo would over penetrate and JHP would save innocent lives.
If JHP solved the over penetration problems like they claimed to be doing, why isn't the problem solved? Because it doesn't exist.
And no the Hague Accord does not prohibit JHP bullets. This has been beat to death on the forums.
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