124+P vs. 147 vs. 147+P HST

This is a discussion on 124+P vs. 147 vs. 147+P HST within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I know I already have a thread I left out the 147+P however. If a 124+P is good because it expands fast and travels at ...

View Poll Results: HST 9mm from 3" barrel

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  • 124+P

    44 56.41%
  • 147+P

    12 15.38%
  • 147

    21 26.92%
  • other-post

    1 1.28%
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Thread: 124+P vs. 147 vs. 147+P HST

  1. #1
    Member Array dbraves8's Avatar
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    124+P vs. 147 vs. 147+P HST

    I know I already have a thread I left out the 147+P however. If a 124+P is good because it expands fast and travels at a good speed, the 147 doenst travel as fast but heavy bullet and penetrates more and expands more than the 124+P, also the 147+P is heavy and travels at a decent speed. So wouldnt the 147 +P be the best expands the most and good penetration. Will hold up in clothing test much more as well?

    This is based on bullets from a 3" barrel

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array automatic slim's Avatar
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    I just read an article entitled "Ammunition for the self defense firearm". In it the author discusses loads for the various calibers. Regarding 9mm, he states 147gr. bullets are "weak, worthless and malfunction prone", and to "never" use 147gr. ammunition. He regards this as nothing more than a "fad". He considers the best 9mm load to be the Cor-Bon 115 gr. +P with a muzzle velocity in excess of 1475 fps. He also specifically refers to penetrating heavy clothing. Google the title and it will give you a link to the article.
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  4. #3
    Member Array johnsonabq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by automatic slim View Post
    I just read an article entitled "Ammunition for the self defense firearm". In it the author discusses loads for the various calibers. Regarding 9mm, he states 147gr. bullets are "weak, worthless and malfunction prone", and to "never" use 147gr. ammunition. He regards this as nothing more than a "fad". He considers the best 9mm load to be the Cor-Bon 115 gr. +P with a muzzle velocity in excess of 1475 fps. He also specifically refers to penetrating heavy clothing. Google the title and it will give you a link to the article.
    How old is the article? Sound like a rather old view. The new HST in 147gr have tested quite well. Completely reliable in my PM9 and in all tests I've read have out penetrated the 124's every time.
    Jeff
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  5. #4
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    I've read the article, and yes it is old.

    As I admitted in my first post, I have a prejudice towards the 147 grain 9mm bullets due to the older design. It's silly and irrational, but it's my view and I'm sticking with it for sentimental reasons.

    As far as old bullets, I have no problems using an older design bullet. There is most likely reams of documentation on the bullet and most importantly, it has been proven or discarded for a reason.

    Yes, the new Ford F150 will get me there in better comfort and style than the old 1972 F150, but they will both get me there. The new bullet design will get the job done, but so will the old one, if you take my point.

    One advantage to using an older bullet style instead of the "latest and greatest" is that it may be easier to find and less costly. Thus, allowing you to practice more with your carry load.

    Biker

  6. #5
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    OOPS

    My "first post" was in a different thread.

    Here it is, for those of you that may be interested in it:

    Bear in mind, my opinion is influenced by twenty years of carrying a gun, and studying various shootings over that course of time.

    I personally have no use for 147 grain anything in 9mm due to it's past record in the late eighties and early to mid nineties. The mid-weight loads, or even the lighter 115 grain loads loaded to +P or +P+ have a good track record with lots of documentation behind them.

    I realize that the 147 grain load has been redesigned and this is just my own personal prejudice, but having met a LEO that was later killed due to an over-penatrative 147 grain round does tend to factor in to my dislike of the round.

    There is no "magic bullet". You would be better served practicing to put the round where it will stop the threat IMHO. In my personal 9mm I carry either 115 grain +P or +P+. I favor the +P+.

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  7. #6
    Member Array stoprilshoot's Avatar
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    its very clear what the survey says about the 147gr.

    fanboys are us!




  8. #7
    Member Array TheRogue's Avatar
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    It's not an option in your poll, but my favorite 9mm SD round, is the Winchester Ranger Talon 127gr. +P+ (RA9TA).

  9. #8
    Member Array johnsonabq's Avatar
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    There is no "magic bullet". You would be better served practicing to put the round where it will stop the threat IMHO.
    Biker
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    Jeff
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  10. #9
    Ex Member Array Sneaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by automatic slim View Post
    I just read an article entitled "Ammunition for the self defense firearm". In it the author discusses loads for the various calibers. Regarding 9mm, he states 147gr. bullets are "weak, worthless and malfunction prone", and to "never" use 147gr. ammunition. He regards this as nothing more than a "fad". He considers the best 9mm load to be the Cor-Bon 115 gr. +P with a muzzle velocity in excess of 1475 fps. He also specifically refers to penetrating heavy clothing. Google the title and it will give you a link to the article.
    Ammo companies have improved the 147gr. round but this round falls short in contrast to Corbon's 115+p round. Because of the velocity Corbon's round is traveling -this round tends to fragment after entering a BG causing a much larger wound & faster incapacitation!

  11. #10
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    A buddy and I did a ton of backyard ballistics testing in the 70s using warm duct seal (oil based clay, when warmed over night to >150 degrees it felt like raw steak). I know bullet designs have improved but I doubt any of the laws of physics have been revised. We would fire into the clay, roll it over and fill the cavity with plaster of paris to get a mold of the wound cavity. Yes somewhat out of date but a good point of comparison.

    In every caliber the middle weight bullets gave the largest wound cavity, greatest expansion and near equal penetration to the heavier bullets. Expansion depends on velocity and while the lighter bullets have the velocity they did not seem to have enough bullet material to make a big mushroom, and the heaviest bullets while having plenty of bullet material did not seem to have the velocity to generate a good mushroom. It always seemed the mid weight bullets gave the best overall performance.

    Recently with the advent of companies like Corbon utilizing solid copper bullets like the Barns X in their DPX loadings you have the light weight combined with sufficient bullet (due to copper being lighter than lead) to have the best combination. Before coming to Iraq I had switched all carry guns to solid copper rounds and that is what is in the wife's carry gun now.

  12. #11
    Member Array johnsonabq's Avatar
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    Here are a couple of tests you might want to check out. They've make the rounds here but still apply.

    Bullet results after firing

    Pistol Cartridges (9x19mm Luger)
    Jeff
    NRA Member
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  13. #12
    Senior Member Array AZ Desertrat's Avatar
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    I just think the 124gr. slug in a 9mm is a good "middle ground" cartridge and if not mistaken the original weight for which the 9mm was designed.
    "The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government--lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." --Patrick Henry

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  14. #13
    Distinguished Member Array old grunt's Avatar
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    I Respect Bikers logic! My old job had us carry 147gr. JHP made by Federal. THAT was the duty round..like it or lump it. Since I left I'll carry 115 Silvertips in my Glock ,but would go with the 124+P Gold Dots that NYPD(they FINALLY got it right..load-wise!!)has authorized for a few years now also. The new FBI 9mm load is(drum-roll please..)a Winchester Ranger 147 BONDED JHP. They said it's the
    S%*T !! Go figure!!
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  15. #14
    New Member Array Saltcreek's Avatar
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    Let's go to the "way-back machine" for a trip to the past. When the 147 really got its start, it was because the gooberment guys needed a heavier bullet at a subsonic velocity that worked great with sound supessed automatic weapons because there was no supersonic crack. Well hey! - if the super secret gooberment guys used them, they must be great right? Wrong! They used them because they were purpose built, and even if not perfect, they could shoot a whole bunch out of their supressed squirt guns. However, your local law enforcement and you at home are not running around with supressed weapons and are not resricted to subsonic underperforming rounds. But the fad was started, but faded when real world results got good people hurt. But the myth remains.
    Help your own self - the Government is busy takin' care of itself!

  16. #15
    Member Array homepcmd's Avatar
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    Ammo today is NOT like ammo of yesterday.

    There is better and more "science" and "art" incorporated into each design. Consider the technology for short barrel... and both different materials plus specific design criteria make for different results.

    Whatever you do use... YOU have to trust it.

    That way you do what YOU need to do. If you don't trust it... you may hesitate (and second guess yourself when using it).

    That would be a very bad thing.

    Trust your training... your skills... your equipment...
    “We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm” - George Orwell

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