The issue with all shallow penetration rounds is that, frequently, your rounds will need to penetrate hands and/or forearms before even getting to the chest cavity.
Think of an attacker - his hands will almost always be outstretched towards you...either holding a weapon, or instinctively shielding himself from your return fire.
Think of your own shots - many will land on those outstretched arms and hands. You will naturally focus on the hands, since that is where the danger is. That is also where your shots will tend to go. Try it at the range with a target depicting a gun or knife wielding attacker.
If you use Glaser or RBCD ammo, the bullet will fragment upon hitting the forearms or hands. The chest will only get fragments - resulting in much less spectacular damage than seen in meat or gel tests.
Then there is the issue of angled, oblique shots. The upper chest cavity is not too deep front-to-back, but come in at an angle from the side, and penetration needs to go up to reach the vitals.
Can a fragmenting round work? Sure. Most thugs will likely stop if their arm is blown up. But...if it's a right handed motivated or drugged thug and his left arm is blown up...maybe not. Not before he kills you.
Shot placement. Penetration. No magic bullets.
Given the military's need to penetrate cover, I find it hard to believe that they use this ammo operationally. I wonder if there is a misunderstanding here?...
He gave me a few examples but I had the feeling the discussion was in confidence so I'm not going to relate them here. Suffice to say this guy and his team were way impressed with RBCD in Afghanistan.:image035:
This was no training load, either. RBCD is waaaay too expensive to be a training round. Winchester does make a frangible load that is specifically designed for training indoors. That goes for like $7.50 a box of 50. RBCD is $39.95 for a box of 20. With the Winchester, it states on the box that it is specifically a training load and not for self defense.:bier:
I watched my 11 year old nephew arguing about pokeman trading cards this entire discussion is so similar. If you like the RCBS load it up, if you like tried and true load it up. This thread boarders on infantile; I can't wait till someone says "your mom".
I was not going to add this,but I must. I have tested the .45acp 90gr. stuff through car windshields with no deflection at all, striking a 25lb block of clay. The round did not pass through the clay. Even shot the windshield,striking the dash next and the round still hit the clay without going through it. When we shot the door,the round went through the door striking the clay and stopping. Second round into the door struck the inside door beam and stopped without striking the clay. I don't think a .223 round would have passed through the inside door beam.Just grown men's curiosity satisified that day. Needles to say I carry RBCD in all the handguns and my SOCOM 16.
ExSoldier - Interesting. I wonder how JAG approved the use of expanding bullets for SOF?
I wasn't referring to body armor, so much as the need to penetrate cover. One of the reasons the military has stayed with FMJ for general use - in addition to the legalities.
Blademan - I have no doubt that a light and fast bullet (which means high kinetic energy) can penetrate light sheet steel and auto glass. My concerns are more related to penetrating flesh and bone (forearms) which starts the bullet fragmentation process, and then still needing to penetrate to the vitals in the chest cavity.
Maybe a block of clay behind another block of clay, with a few inches of space between?
Edit - One other question...have either of you taken one of these bullets apart? Not sure if you've read through this whole thread, but another member did cut one open. Instead of exotic "blended metals" it appears to be a rather ordinary JSP, with much of the lead removed and replaced by a light plastic plug. Thus an ultralight and ultrafast bullet. Whether these bullets can work or not, I really don't want to give $2 per round to a bunch of charlatans.
If you do cut one open, I'm sure we would be interested to see what you find - and your reaction. Maybe they make different kinds of bullets - I don't know. Just seems fishy to me.
Some years back a local market had pork ribs on sale. I picked up 20lbs and headed to the range. RBCD 90gr 45acp made hamburger meat out of the ribs. Even after putting 2-3 layers of rib slabs on top of each other. No problem what so ever in penetrating bone. RBCD is perhaps not for everyone,but I am a convert.