RBCD Ammo controversy

This is a discussion on RBCD Ammo controversy within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by HowardCohodas It's been reported that Coral Gables PD did had a testing and evaluation process before selecting the RBCD ammo. I'm perusing ...

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Thread: RBCD Ammo controversy

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HowardCohodas View Post
    It's been reported that Coral Gables PD did had a testing and evaluation process before selecting the RBCD ammo. I'm perusing if a report was written and if it is available.
    Well, since I live in Coral Gables and that's MY police dept, I'll have to check this out.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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  3. #62
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    Question Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by HowardCohodas View Post
    In the OP I linked to an article in the current issue of American Cop Magazine titled "Le Mas Handgun Ammo Rifle-Like Firepower" by Bob Pilgrim.

    The article begins as follows:
    Okay so wait: Is this stuff RBCD or not that the Gables PD is loading?
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  4. #63
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    The issue with all shallow penetration rounds is that, frequently, your rounds will need to penetrate hands and/or forearms before even getting to the chest cavity.

    Think of an attacker - his hands will almost always be outstretched towards you...either holding a weapon, or instinctively shielding himself from your return fire.

    Think of your own shots - many will land on those outstretched arms and hands. You will naturally focus on the hands, since that is where the danger is. That is also where your shots will tend to go. Try it at the range with a target depicting a gun or knife wielding attacker.

    If you use Glaser or RBCD ammo, the bullet will fragment upon hitting the forearms or hands. The chest will only get fragments - resulting in much less spectacular damage than seen in meat or gel tests.

    Then there is the issue of angled, oblique shots. The upper chest cavity is not too deep front-to-back, but come in at an angle from the side, and penetration needs to go up to reach the vitals.

    Can a fragmenting round work? Sure. Most thugs will likely stop if their arm is blown up. But...if it's a right handed motivated or drugged thug and his left arm is blown up...maybe not. Not before he kills you.

    Shot placement. Penetration. No magic bullets.

    JMHO.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Yankee View Post
    I don't know about any of RBCD's claims and don't really care what Le Mas has said. I just want to know do they work. So I tested 9 mm RBCD, Corbon DPX and Glaser silver on pork roasts.
    I would love to test them on roasts. Or maybe a huge chunk of prime rib! But with the price of MEAT these days (which is almost more than ammo) I can't afford this test, so since I believe in RBCD already I'll just take your word for it. But I would truly love to see what a RBCD 454 Casull would do to such a roast!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    I have a very good friend, retired as a senior officer in Special Operations who once told me that SOCOM buys the stuff by the pallet...
    Are you sure they use this ammo on operations? Or as a training round? (Fragments against steel plate targets)

    Given the military's need to penetrate cover, I find it hard to believe that they use this ammo operationally. I wonder if there is a misunderstanding here?...
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  7. #66
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    Wink No misunderstanding...

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Are you sure they use this ammo on operations? Or as a training round? (Fragments against steel plate targets)

    Given the military's need to penetrate cover, I find it hard to believe that they use this ammo operationally. I wonder if there is a misunderstanding here?...
    Nope. This guy was a specialist in Afghanistan (although I'm thinking it was like 2002 or 2003 because he's now been retired a few years) and he said the "MUJ" they faced weren't wearing a lot of body armor. Like chasing mountain boys thru the caves if you get my meaning. He said he liked it not only because it always flattened the bad guys whether or not he was using a 1911 45, an M9 9mm or a Sig P226 in anything... but because in the dark it was low flash low recoil and when you're wearing a NOD it makes a difference.

    He gave me a few examples but I had the feeling the discussion was in confidence so I'm not going to relate them here. Suffice to say this guy and his team were way impressed with RBCD in Afghanistan.

    This was no training load, either. RBCD is waaaay too expensive to be a training round. Winchester does make a frangible load that is specifically designed for training indoors. That goes for like $7.50 a box of 50. RBCD is $39.95 for a box of 20. With the Winchester, it states on the box that it is specifically a training load and not for self defense.
    Last edited by ExSoldier; July 29th, 2009 at 11:01 PM. Reason: clarification
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    I watched my 11 year old nephew arguing about pokeman trading cards this entire discussion is so similar. If you like the RCBS load it up, if you like tried and true load it up. This thread boarders on infantile; I can't wait till someone says "your mom".
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbqgrill View Post
    I watched my 11 year old nephew arguing about pokeman trading cards this entire discussion is so similar. If you like the RCBS load it up, if you like tried and true load it up. This thread boarders on infantile; I can't wait till someone says "your mom".
    You're so critical, feel free to exit the discussion at any moment.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OD View Post
    Can you point me to where I may read up on that? (besides RBCD's website)


    I can. Gun World..April 2000.Atricle written by Nick Spano.Then there was Guns&Ammo/Handguns. April 2001.Article written by Cpl. Ed Sanow. Hope that helps.

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    I was not going to add this,but I must. I have tested the .45acp 90gr. stuff through car windshields with no deflection at all, striking a 25lb block of clay. The round did not pass through the clay. Even shot the windshield,striking the dash next and the round still hit the clay without going through it. When we shot the door,the round went through the door striking the clay and stopping. Second round into the door struck the inside door beam and stopped without striking the clay. I don't think a .223 round would have passed through the inside door beam.Just grown men's curiosity satisified that day. Needles to say I carry RBCD in all the handguns and my SOCOM 16.

  12. #71
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    ExSoldier - Interesting. I wonder how JAG approved the use of expanding bullets for SOF?

    I wasn't referring to body armor, so much as the need to penetrate cover. One of the reasons the military has stayed with FMJ for general use - in addition to the legalities.

    Blademan - I have no doubt that a light and fast bullet (which means high kinetic energy) can penetrate light sheet steel and auto glass. My concerns are more related to penetrating flesh and bone (forearms) which starts the bullet fragmentation process, and then still needing to penetrate to the vitals in the chest cavity.

    Maybe a block of clay behind another block of clay, with a few inches of space between?

    Edit - One other question...have either of you taken one of these bullets apart? Not sure if you've read through this whole thread, but another member did cut one open. Instead of exotic "blended metals" it appears to be a rather ordinary JSP, with much of the lead removed and replaced by a light plastic plug. Thus an ultralight and ultrafast bullet. Whether these bullets can work or not, I really don't want to give $2 per round to a bunch of charlatans.

    If you do cut one open, I'm sure we would be interested to see what you find - and your reaction. Maybe they make different kinds of bullets - I don't know. Just seems fishy to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blademan21 View Post
    I can. Gun World..April 2000.Atricle written by Nick Spano.Then there was Guns&Ammo/Handguns. April 2001.Article written by Cpl. Ed Sanow. Hope that helps.
    Thank you Sir.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbqgrill View Post
    I watched my 11 year old nephew arguing about pokeman trading cards this entire discussion is so similar. If you like the RCBS load it up, if you like tried and true load it up. This thread boarders on infantile; I can't wait till someone says "your mom".
    This was completely unnecessary, has nothing to do whether your like the load or not, we are trying to get to the facts regarding this ammo.

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blademan21 View Post
    I can. Gun World..April 2000.Atricle written by Nick Spano.Then there was Guns&Ammo/Handguns. April 2001.Article written by Cpl. Ed Sanow. Hope that helps.
    Can you, or anyone, actually post a link to the articles? I just spent a few minutes searching online, and came up with nothing other than the reference on the RBCD website. They list the articles, but no links.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    I would love to test them on roasts. Or maybe a huge chunk of prime rib! But with the price of MEAT these days (which is almost more than ammo) I can't afford this test, so since I believe in RBCD already I'll just take your word for it. But I would truly love to see what a RBCD 454 Casull would do to such a roast!

    ExSoldier

    Some years back a local market had pork ribs on sale. I picked up 20lbs and headed to the range. RBCD 90gr 45acp made hamburger meat out of the ribs. Even after putting 2-3 layers of rib slabs on top of each other. No problem what so ever in penetrating bone. RBCD is perhaps not for everyone,but I am a convert.

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