RBCD Ammo controversy - Page 7

RBCD Ammo controversy

This is a discussion on RBCD Ammo controversy within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by BigLaw I was messing around with a couple retired vests at the range. I shot Ranger T, Hornady Tap, and WWB in ...

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  1. #91
    Member Array Blademan21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLaw View Post
    I was messing around with a couple retired vests at the range. I shot Ranger T, Hornady Tap, and WWB in 40, 45 and 9mm. The only round that went through was the LE RBCD .40

    I am not suprised.


  2. #92
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Physics strikes again

    Correct, no surprise there.

    Barrier penetration is more related to kinetic energy, which increases exponentially with velocity. Thus, barrier penetration is best achieved with higher velocity projectiles.

    Penetration in flesh, however, is more related to momentum, which is simply mass x velocity. This favors heavier projectiles.

    If you want to penetrate body armor, RBCD may be a good choice. But, you still get a more shallow wound that may not reach the vitals.

    Better bet may be the usual failure to stop drill - 2 to the chest followed by 1 to the head (aka Mozambique drill).
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  3. #93
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    I don't want to penetrate body armor, if my gun were to get taken away during a struggle and used on me I want my vest to stop the round. I don't carry this ammo, I couldn't even if I wanted to. I am issued Federal HST. I ordered a few boxes a couple years ago just to see what the hype was about. I do keep a mag of it hid in my cruiser just in case I were to need such a round.

  4. #94
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    Rbcd performance plus ammo discussion

    I'd like to address the PRACTICAL points about this ammo and hopefully, cast an experienced light on its use.
    I have loved guns all my life, but in the last many years, I have refined my scope of interest to handguns, specifically, Glocks. By way of qualifying my opinion of RBCD ammo, I have the following "credentials", if you will:

    I have been legally licensed to carry since the 70's when my Nursing School classmate was raped and murdered in Memphis, TN. I have been shooting for pleasure and in competitions for years, and own many handguns, all different calibers, as well as rifles and shotguns. I have been fortunate to attend two courses (60 hours) of study under Clint Smith at the Kerrville, Texas facility, THUNDER RANCH. In addition, I used what I've learned from a lifetime of shooting, but especially what I learned from Clint, to teach a Defensive Hangun Course while I lived in Texas. I also conducted Concealed Handgun Classes for both men and women. Before I would accept women into the CHL class, I REQUIRED them to take the Defensive Handgun Course first. I am not disparaging women; I just learned early on that women were somewhat intimidated by male handgun instructors, but they responded very well to a female teacher (yes, I am one of each). I actually was pressed into developing a CHL class for women by my local shooting range folks when I lived in Texas. It was a lot of hard work, little pay, but rich in reward, to see in one weekend's time, a woman go from a timid, insecure, frightened victim-in-waiting, to a confident, poised and ready "defender-in-waiting". She KNEW she could do it!

    Now, for the ammo thing.
    Regarding the testing done by 'Truth-In-A-Box', I have to challenge him on several levels. Respectfully, I feel that he has done a tremendous disservice to this ammo because he was simply[/I] unfamiliar with it on a practical level.[/I]I have conducted very similar tests in front of students, and have proved to them that, if their lives depend on a reliable handgun and reliable ammo, the combination of the Glock and RBCD ammo is one to be depended upon, without fail.

    I have used the gallon jug demo many times, using Federal HydroShock ammo as my control (which is what I carried up until I found the RBCD Performance Plus). Needless to say, after my comparing both ammos, I quickly abandoned the Federal for the RBCD. After all, my life depends on reliability. I also divided a loaf of "Spam-Ham and shot each half with a Fed HydroShock JHP and an RBCD Performance Plus, both 9mm. The FHS blew a big hole in the first half, but the RBCD exploded its entire half into shreds. Which result would you like to have if your life is on the line?

    Here are my practical reasons for using RBCD in my personal carry guns, as well as for ALL my home-defense weapons:

    1. If your aim is to see how far into a line of water jugs a round will go, the test is adequate. What happens in real life situations, however, is much different. The "inadequate penetration" as you put it, is exactly why these rounds are made as they are. It is a FRANGIBLE round, you DON'T WANT OVERPENETRATION! When the RBCD PP strikes its target, a fluid medium (center mass), the round slows. The little ball behind the bullet continues its course forward, striking the bullet from behind, "exploding" it, and creating utter devastation! The gray tip that looks so unimpressive is actually a composite metal that is created under 40,000 pounds of pressure. When it disintegrates, it creates a "shock" to the nervous system and brings all activity ro an immediate halt. There are accounts under actual use, of seeing a "mist" emanated from the target when hit. Any hit to the upper torso will immediately shock the nervous system and bring all nervous innervation in the area to a standstill. Grown men have been dropped to the ground by being hit in the shoulder/upper arm area with one of these rounds.

    2. If you achieve limited penetration upon hitting your target, there is no danger of the round going through your target and hitting an innocent person. After all, you accomplished your goal with your hit; you stopped the advance of your attacker without undue risk to bystanders. You'll have a lot rougher time in court defending yourself against whatever charge the prosecutor can think up than if you exercised prudence by controlling the environment as much as possible. The fact that you chose a round that offers this much more safety to innocent people will only go to your favor if you end up in court. This choice of round is much more defendable because of this one factor.

    3. These rounds were developed by a former New York City Policeman (SWAT TEAM?) and Roscoe (?) in San Antonio, after the policeman's frustration at Bad Guys who kept on coming, bringing with them 8-9 rds of NYC-sanctioned ammo, usually Federal HydroShock. He sought to find a round that would absolutely STOP the BG. When he teamed up with Roscoe, who owned an ammo mfg co in San Antonio, a new breed of ammo was born. Unless you are willing to carry a .50 cal concealed, my firm belief is you can substitute an RBCD 9mm for anyone else's .45 cal. The result will be generally the same, with the edge going to the shock-value of the RBCD.

    4. If you will search gun magazine articles going back several years, you will find an account of law officers shooting through the back of an SUV with this ammo. The rd went through the back door, the back seat, the front seat, and into the perp, killing him instantly. The reason for this is this round was DESIGNED not to "deploy" until it hits a FLUID MEDIUM. What would the human torso be considered other than a "fluid medium"?

    So, in summary, I would carefully consider this ammo again, in light of the experience of someone very familiar with it, your open-mindedness and willingness to get some of this ammo and check it out for yourself. The recoil IS less, the results are SPECTACULAR, and the confidence you have once you see what it will do is worth any amount of money. End game is, you STOPPED THE ATTACKER even if you did not kill him.

    See you on the Range,
    Andy
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  5. #95
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Holy thread coming back from the dead, Batman!

    No - these bullets are not made from any fancy blended metals. They've been tested by independent labs - they are just plain old lead. The link was posted earlier in this thread. The makers of this ammo are apparently - liars. This is nothing more than a light weight JSP. That's all.

    No - it is not possible for a polymer ball, which weighs less than the lead in front of it, to "push" the metal from behind. The lead has more inertia than the lighter plastic behind it.

    You need penetration. Not all your shots will be from straight in the front. Put hands and arms in the way (like they would be if holding a weapon), and you can see the need for penetration clearly. This is the reason the FBI calls for a minimum of 12 inches, with 15 preferred.

    Let this thread die.
    aus71383 likes this.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  6. #96
    Member Array Randy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockytopandy View Post
    I'd like to address the PRACTICAL points about this ammo and hopefully, cast an experienced light on its use.
    I have loved guns all my life, but in the last many years, I have refined my scope of interest to handguns, specifically, Glocks. By way of qualifying my opinion of RBCD ammo, I have the following "credentials", if you will:

    I have been legally licensed to carry since the 70's when my Nursing School classmate was raped and murdered in Memphis, TN. I have been shooting for pleasure and in competitions for years, and own many handguns, all different calibers, as well as rifles and shotguns. I have been fortunate to attend two courses (60 hours) of study under Clint Smith at the Kerrville, Texas facility, THUNDER RANCH. In addition, I used what I've learned from a lifetime of shooting, but especially what I learned from Clint, to teach a Defensive Hangun Course while I lived in Texas. I also conducted Concealed Handgun Classes for both men and women. Before I would accept women into the CHL class, I REQUIRED them to take the Defensive Handgun Course first. I am not disparaging women; I just learned early on that women were somewhat intimidated by male handgun instructors, but they responded very well to a female teacher (yes, I am one of each). I actually was pressed into developing a CHL class for women by my local shooting range folks when I lived in Texas. It was a lot of hard work, little pay, but rich in reward, to see in one weekend's time, a woman go from a timid, insecure, frightened victim-in-waiting, to a confident, poised and ready "defender-in-waiting". She KNEW she could do it!
    I mean no disrespect here but these are hardly "credentials" with respect to the current topic; terminal ballistics and the study of ballistic wounding.






    Now, for the ammo thing.
    Regarding the testing done by 'Truth-In-A-Box', I have to challenge him on several levels. Respectfully, I feel that he has done a tremendous disservice to this ammo because he was simply[/I] unfamiliar with it on a practical level.[/I]I have conducted very similar tests in front of students, and have proved to them that, if their lives depend on a reliable handgun and reliable ammo, the combination of the Glock and RBCD ammo is one to be depended upon, without fail.
    "Without fail" is a hard and absolute statement, one that no firearm or ammunition could withstand. You are doing a disservice to your students by telling them otherwise.


    I have used the gallon jug demo many times, using Federal HydroShock ammo as my control (which is what I carried up until I found the RBCD Performance Plus). Needless to say, after my comparing both ammos, I quickly abandoned the Federal for the RBCD. After all, my life depends on reliability. I also divided a loaf of "Spam-Ham and shot each half with a Fed HydroShock JHP and an RBCD Performance Plus, both 9mm. The FHS blew a big hole in the first half, but the RBCD exploded its entire half into shreds. Which result would you like to have if your life is on the line?
    Shooting into a jug of water is not the same as shooting into living tissue.

    Here are my practical reasons for using RBCD in my personal carry guns, as well as for ALL my home-defense weapons:

    1. If your aim is to see how far into a line of water jugs a round will go, the test is adequate. What happens in real life situations, however, is much different. The "inadequate penetration" as you put it, is exactly why these rounds are made as they are. It is a FRANGIBLE round, you DON'T WANT OVERPENETRATION! When the RBCD PP strikes its target, a fluid medium (center mass), the round slows. The little ball behind the bullet continues its course forward, striking the bullet from behind, "exploding" it, and creating utter devastation! The gray tip that looks so unimpressive is actually a composite metal that is created under 40,000 pounds of pressure. When it disintegrates, it creates a "shock" to the nervous system and brings all activity ro an immediate halt. There are accounts under actual use, of seeing a "mist" emanated from the target when hit. Any hit to the upper torso will immediately shock the nervous system and bring all nervous innervation in the area to a standstill. Grown men have been dropped to the ground by being hit in the shoulder/upper arm area with one of these rounds.
    With respect to citizen self-defense shootings, over-penetration is largely myth and urban legend. A greater concern are the rounds that totally miss the intended target. Of course, no one has a magic bullet to sell that will fix that problem.

    Your claims about the performance of the ammunition are baseless without example. It reads like fantasy and an over-active imagination, not to mention the laws of physics that would have to be violated.

    2. If you achieve limited penetration upon hitting your target, there is no danger of the round going through your target and hitting an innocent person. After all, you accomplished your goal with your hit; you stopped the advance of your attacker without undue risk to bystanders. You'll have a lot rougher time in court defending yourself against whatever charge the prosecutor can think up than if you exercised prudence by controlling the environment as much as possible. The fact that you chose a round that offers this much more safety to innocent people will only go to your favor if you end up in court. This choice of round is much more defendable because of this one factor.
    Okay - you're shot someone with essentially an "exotic" bullet that, by your own words "explodes" upon impact, resulting in "utter devastation". You believe this is going to help your case in court? Tell us about your court room experiences and how that experience helped you arrive at your conclusion.


    3. These rounds were developed by a former New York City Policeman (SWAT TEAM?) and Roscoe (?) in San Antonio, after the policeman's frustration at Bad Guys who kept on coming, bringing with them 8-9 rds of NYC-sanctioned ammo, usually Federal HydroShock. He sought to find a round that would absolutely STOP the BG. When he teamed up with Roscoe, who owned an ammo mfg co in San Antonio, a new breed of ammo was born. Unless you are willing to carry a .50 cal concealed, my firm belief is you can substitute an RBCD 9mm for anyone else's .45 cal. The result will be generally the same, with the edge going to the shock-value of the RBCD.
    A career police officer who happened to have an engineering background sufficient enough to allow him to develop bullets. Okay.....

    What does a ".50 cal concealed" have to do with a 9mm or 45?





    4. If you will search gun magazine articles going back several years, you will find an account of law officers shooting through the back of an SUV with this ammo. The rd went through the back door, the back seat, the front seat, and into the perp, killing him instantly. The reason for this is this round was DESIGNED not to "deploy" until it hits a FLUID MEDIUM. What would the human torso be considered other than a "fluid medium"?
    When someone is paid to write an article, said article can be what you whatever the person writing the check desires it to be. Just saying....

    Guns and Blaster magazines are there for one single purpose and, contrary to perhaps popular opinion, that purpose isn't to educate the masses who read them.

    Please cite the police department using the ammo. I find the details of that story highly suspect. A "frangible" bullet will not do that.

    So, in summary, I would carefully consider this ammo again, in light of the experience of someone very familiar with it, your open-mindedness and willingness to get some of this ammo and check it out for yourself. The recoil IS less, the results are SPECTACULAR, and the confidence you have once you see what it will do is worth any amount of money. End game is, you STOPPED THE ATTACKER even if you did not kill him.

    See you on the Range,
    Andy
    An open mind is important but one so open that brains are allowed to fall out is dangerous. One cannot ignore the laws of physics, regardless of how compelling the story.

    Are you on the payroll for this company? It seems odd that you signed up just to reply to a thread dead for over two years. Even bad publicity is good for business though, eh?

    Randy
    OD* and Cuda66 like this.

  7. #97
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooterX View Post
    ExSoldier before removing these from my EDC's and my house gun, I would load one in the chamber of my XDsc, followed by the first two in the mag, the remaining 7 would be federal hydro-shoks, now would be Corbon DPX's. My revolvers would have the first two RBCD's and the remaining with nyclads (.38 spcl.) or federal 125 gr. critical defense in my s&w model 66-1.
    The venerable NYCLAD is the perfect example of the perfect non +P load. Specifically designed to be a standard pressure load for small "J" frames it will reliably expand to about 60 or 70 caliber every single time under nearly all circumstances. So you get less recoil, less report (noise), lower flash, and extended life of the weapon and your ability to shoot it well because all of the foregoing will make you want to avoid shooting just to save your wrists and hands from the punishment. They stopped making NYCLAD for many years, but I think I have heard it is making a comeback. And despite all of the negative comments I STILL like the RBCD loads. Having one or two atop my magazine won't hurt if I do my job with shot placement correctly.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  8. #98
    New Member Array garyp53161's Avatar
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    RBCD Ammo

    Hi
    I just bought some rbcd .32 ammo for my keltec p32 and tried it today at the local range.

    just shot paper targets but the ammo veered way to the right on every shot which kind of ticked me off for the expense of the ammo,

    shot other Grizzly Extreme and that stuff kicked ass but jams real easy when trying to manually eject a bullet due to the cuts in the bullet itself and the bullet is a little long for the p32

  9. #99
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Lightbulb RBCD is Location Specific for ME.

    Quote Originally Posted by garyp53161 View Post
    Hi
    I just bought some rbcd .32 ammo for my keltec p32 and tried it today at the local range.

    just shot paper targets but the ammo veered way to the right on every shot which kind of ticked me off for the expense of the ammo,

    shot other Grizzly Extreme and that stuff kicked ass but jams real easy when trying to manually eject a bullet due to the cuts in the bullet itself and the bullet is a little long for the p32
    Hmmmmmm. That's strange and the only conclusion I can reach is a combination of small caliber plus a much lighter weight projectile for a hotter load. I mean the 45 loads are like 135 grains. They load and fire fine for me and hit to the point of aim, but I've only used them in heavy calibers: 45acp, 45 Colt and 454 Casull. I agree, they should hit where you aim for the price! I'd complain. I think their customer service is pretty good. A lot of my current carry choices are dictated by my locale of Miami, FL. I think that if and when I'm able to retire (hopefully within the next 7 years) and we move to a colder climate in the mountains somewhere, I'll ditch the tropical loads for the change of seasons and go with something that penetrates better. Maybe the new Federal Guard Dog. Maybe even military ball. I dunno yet.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  10. #100
    New Member Array icyclaws's Avatar
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    Quite honestly i'm sick to death of everyone a "wisdom"! No offense intended Randy (ok maybe some) but can you repost the scientific ballistics tests that you did instead of disparaging other peoples comments and experience with this ammo? Oops did I just become a hypocrite? Hmm.....

  11. #101
    New Member Array rickyjo's Avatar
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    I sell RBCD and carry it. I have personally shot it and so have several of my customers.. IT WORKS! and it gets the job done. Dont waste your time shooting paper targets...shoot something that really shows how this ammo works. Jim Cirrilo and Roscoe Stoker designed the best self-defense close quarter combat ammo on the market. No doubt about it.

  12. #102
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    This assertion is a flat out LIE. I live in, born and raised in Coral Gables, FL. I know the entire city council and the mayor (former we had an election a couple of years ago and don't like the new guy). I exchanged e-mails with the then Mayor who sent it to the Chief of Police who sent it to the proper officer and he responded with the following email which was sent to me. I have "X"ed out my name.

    Chief,

    The Coral Gables Police Department issues Speer Gold Dot duty ammunition to our officers.

    I have never heard of the brand described by Mr. XXXXXX, RBCD, mentioned by our firearms instructors.


    Major Joseph McNichol
    Coral Gables Police Department
    305-460-5430
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickyjo View Post
    I sell RBCD and carry it. I have personally shot it and so have several of my customers.. IT WORKS! and it gets the job done. Dont waste your time shooting paper targets...shoot something that really shows how this ammo works. Jim Cirrilo and Roscoe Stoker designed the best self-defense close quarter combat ammo on the market. No doubt about it.
    Really.

    So that's why they are banned from doing business with the government ever again, after several studies proved that their claims about their bullets were utter and complete hogwash?

    Perhaps there is a reason RBCD/LeMas and all the individuals associated with it (Stan Bulmer, John Hamilton, Sandra Hamilton, Cynthia Stoker, David Allen Stoker) have been indefinitely banned from doing any business with the US Government. (Go here: https://www.epls.gov/epls/search.do and then search for the firm/entity name of "RBCD" or "LeMas LTD" or "Performance Ammunition Tech", or any of the individuals listed above)
    Source: LeMas/RBCD Ammunition Analysis - M4Carbine.net Forums
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

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  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by icyclaws View Post
    Quite honestly i'm sick to death of everyone a "wisdom"! No offense intended Randy (ok maybe some) but can you repost the scientific ballistics tests that you did instead of disparaging other peoples comments and experience with this ammo? Oops did I just become a hypocrite? Hmm.....
    here: LeMas/RBCD Ammunition Analysis - M4Carbine.net Forums

    Some highlights:


    Far from being a “non-comparable technology”, a “new generation of munitions”, a “paradigm of technological innovation”, “the single most significant advancement in small arms since the advent of the 20th century”, as Mr. Bulmer claims, the LeMas rifle ammunition is actually nothing but lightweight, repackaged varmint bullets disguised with a black coating of moly, and driven to higher than normal velocities with concomitantly higher than normal pressures. For example, the maximum pressure for 5.56 mm ammunition using the military case mouth test methodology is 58,700 psi. When tested using the military case mouth pressure method in a standard military 20” 1/7 twist test barrel, the LeMas 5.56 mm Land Warfare ammunition demonstrated a 10 shot ave pressure reading of 63,200 psi resulting in a 3907 fps ave velocity. Note that standard military 5.56 mm 62 gr M855 FMJ tested in the same fashion yielded an ave 50,080 psi pressure and an ave velocity of 2985 fps.
    And:

    Congress appropriated $1,050,000.00 in the FY03 budget for the government to conduct a comprehensive study of LeMas “BMT” ammunition and evaluate the remarkable claims made by LeMas. A 3 year, multi-agency testing effort was conducted and the results compiled and documented. The long awaited USSOCOM/ARDEC report on LeMas ammo was made available for distribution to authorized organizations in August of 2007. Virtually every single claim made by Mr. Bulmer and Mr. Hamilton regarding LeMas bullet design, manufacture, construction methodology and composition, pyrophoric and thermodynamic properties, behavior in tissue simulant, intermediate barrier capability, terminal performance in tissue were all determined to be FALSE. Hopefully this will put to rest any residual doubts about the fraudulent nature of LeMas "BMT". Note that the USSOCOM/ARDEC report validates ALL the information we have released publicly to date above
    .

    And, as I stated above, their lying about their ammunition has gotten them banned from any future gov't contract...and you kinda gotta lie REAL bad to have that happen.
    aus71383 likes this.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  15. #105
    New Member Array Shannonsj's Avatar
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    RBCD Controversy?

    I don't understand why this is so controversial....If the company lied and got banned, who cares? Like everything else we do when carrying a weapon, we are each responsible for what happens when we pull the trigger. If the owner isn't confident of the performance of what's in the chamber, it's their choice....and their consequence. That said.....I have a couple of boxes of this stuff that I bought based on the hype at a LE specialty shop in town.

    I didn't like not being 100 percent sure of what that new round would do so I took some Northern Virginia phone books to the range and put a couple of those RBCD .45 rounds into each from about 20-25 feet. The back half of the phone books looked like confetti. I am confident that anyone I shot with that round at that range would have a bad enough day that they would not be an issue for me. Even if they didn't go down immediately, that's what the hydro-shocks are for just behind that first RBCD round.

    One interesting thing I saw that made me limit RBCD rounds to 1 and only 1 in the stack. The impact is about 4-5 inches below point of aim consistently. I attribute that to velocity of the RBCD bullet. My 1911 variant's sights (I believe) account for a certain amount of muzzle rise with traditional/heavier (and slower) .45 caliber bullets. Having several of those wildcards in the stack requires way too much thought for accurate shot placement.

    Yes, it's not scientific, but it was enough for me to make sure I have that one round at the top of my mag. But it's too expensive and too "single purpose" to load the entire stack with.

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