45 fmj vs hp

45 fmj vs hp

This is a discussion on 45 fmj vs hp within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have been reading all i can and while there is a lot of stuff on the 9mm vs this and that I cannot find ...

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Thread: 45 fmj vs hp

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array cmb's Avatar
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    45 fmj vs hp

    I have been reading all i can and while there is a lot of stuff on the 9mm vs this and that I cannot find much in the way of specific studies of the use of fmj 45 in a SD situation. What is the penetration etc...

    With the reputation of the 45 and hp usually being a better choice if available... is fmj in 45ACP a solid and safe SD defense round?


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    .45 ball will tend to over penetrate. It typically will not have the velocity of self defense rounds. There will be little or no expansion. The rounds are typically not manufactured to the same standards as self defense ammo.

    In general, the only reason I would use ball over HP would be if;
    I couldn't afford defensive ammo,
    I couldn't find defensive ammo,
    or my firearm would not reliably cycle HP ammo.

    And if any of those were true, I would save up, order online, or find a different firearm.

    All of that being said, ball ammo has been stopping threats for a lot longer than HP ammo has been around.
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    Senior Member Array 2ndsupporter's Avatar
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    I feel like that the FMJ is not a good round at all for home defense especially if the are family members in the house with you. The FMJ will easily penetrate walls and could find an unitentional victim.

    I prefer to keep the FMJ's for plinking and I buy just a few boxes of the HP's for the home defense.
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    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndsupporter View Post
    I feel like that the FMJ is not a good round at all for home defense especially if the are family members in the house with you. The FMJ will easily penetrate walls and could find an unitentional victim.

    I prefer to keep the FMJ's for plinking and I buy just a few boxes of the HP's for the home defense.
    ANY .45 will easily penetrate walls, FMJ or HP. For that matter 99 percent of all handgun rounds will penetrate the average home walls.

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    VIP Member Array automatic slim's Avatar
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    HP ammo is often praised as being more effective than FMJ. However consider that in war, only FMJ is used (theoretically) and look at the casualties that have been inflicted.
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    Senior Member Array InspectorGadget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by automatic slim View Post
    HP ammo is often praised as being more effective than FMJ. However consider that in war, only FMJ is used (theoretically) and look at the casualties that have been inflicted.
    Hague Convention of 1899
    The First Peace Conference was held from May 18 and signed on July 29, 1899, and entered into force on September 4, 1900. The Hague Convention of 1899 consisted of four main sections and three additional declarations (the final main section is for some reason identical to the first additional declaration):

    I - Pacific Settlement of International Disputes
    II - Laws and Customs of War on Land
    III - Adaptation to Maritime Warfare of Principles of Geneva Convention of 1864
    IV - Prohibiting Launching of Projectiles and Explosives from Balloons
    Declaration I - On the Launching of Projectiles and Explosives from Balloons
    Declaration II - On the Use of Projectiles the Object of Which is the Diffusion of Asphyxiating or Deleterious Gases
    Declaration III - On the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body
    The main effect of the Convention was to ban the use of certain types of modern technology in war: bombing from the air, chemical warfare, and hollow point bullets. The Convention also set up the Permanent Court of Arbitration.

    The conference was summoned at the urging of Mikhail Nikolayevich Muravyov, Foreign Minister of Russia. Its delegates included Fyodor Martens and Ivan Bloch. The American delegation was led by diplomat and educator Andrew Dickson White.
    Most of this treaty has been changed with other treaties (Arial Bombing, and Chemical Warfare) We in the military do not use FMJ by choice, we are forced to. With the .45 it is less of an issue. One of the reasons the 9mm was adopted was to be able to use standard NATO ammo. For background on our present problems with 9mm is NATO went with the theory of Injuring one person takes 2 off the battlefield. This theory falls apart with Jihadists, 9MM HP does have some stopping power but 9mm ball has proven it DOES NOT most forces in SOF are switching back to .45 for this reason. Other units want to but do not even have the option at this time.

    I have seen troops on charges for having HP in their 9mm, and for cutting the bullets to expand on their 9mm ball. It is not tolerated by the chain of command.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Array cmb's Avatar
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    I like the wall thing that was informative, essentially a hp become a fmj in sheetrock. What about 45 fmj in ballistic gel or water jugs or humans or animals?

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    Senior Member Array 2ndsupporter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    ANY .45 will easily penetrate walls, FMJ or HP. For that matter 99 percent of all handgun rounds will penetrate the average home walls.

    The Box O' Truth #1 - The Original Box O' Truth - Page 1
    The Box O' Truth #12 - Insulated Walls - Page 1
    Thanks for the heads up! That is very interesting info. Although I feel better using the hp ammo for home deense.
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  9. #9
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndsupporter View Post
    Thanks for the heads up! That is very interesting info. Although I feel better using the hp ammo for home deense.
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    Think about it. There is no such thing as a "safe" self defense round. It is meant to put the hurt on a bad guy. If you miss, and hit someone else, bad things will happen.

    JHPs have less chance of over-penetrating. FMJ has more of a chance. Even if a JHP does over-penetrate, it will likely be going at a slower velocity than a FMJ.

    JHPs do more damage, so you may need to fire fewer shots, which reduces the chance of a miss.

    JHPs are also less likely to ricochet, since they tend to break apart into smaller pieces when they hit a solid object - FMJ stays as one lump with more mass and more energy to hurt someone by accident.

    For all these reasons, use JHPs for defense. If your firearm will not feed them, you can try PowRBall or Federal EFMJ (Expanding Full Metal Jacket). Or, get a different gun.

    Will FMJ work to stop a bad guy? Sure it will. Shot placement is paramount no matter what kind of ammo you use. JHP is just better, unless you want to penetrate barriers. That is one reason the military uses FMJ (in addition to the laws and treaties already mentioned).

    Hope this helps!
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    Regardless what you think of their methods of gathering data, Marshall and Sanow discussed the performance of FMJ and other non-hollowpoint ammo in their second and third book in some detail. You might not agree with them, but there is a wealth of information to study in the books and I think it's a mistake to ignore it completely.

  12. #12
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    Sure, I would prefer HP as a SD round, but I certainly would not have any problem using FMJ for SD...either will work very well.
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    Distinguished Member Array Der Alte's Avatar
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    This conversation has been to simple - how about frangible ammunition?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Alte View Post
    This conversation has been to simple - how about frangible ammunition?
    I am curious about this too. From shooting my 45acp 230 grain into a berm at water bottles, (singles), I was really surprised at how little they deformed.
    One of these days I need to take some digging tools with me. I would love to see what all is in this berm...
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    45 fmj

    I think you have to look at the actual shootings in which the 45 FMJ were used. Chuck Taylor on his web states that he used 45 FMJ in five shootings and all the suspects dropped so quick he could not get a second shot off. I knew a LE officer who also used the FMJ with the same results. None of his bullets exited the body of the suspect. As a law enforcement officer I have seen that the results of actual shootings differ from what is written about the effectiveness of various handgun rounds. Shot placement is still the key. I do not hesitate for one minute for carry 45 FMJ in my weapons. I agree with some of the comments that any handgun ammo including 45 HP's can penetrate home walls. One of the key safety rules is knowing what is beyond your target. My 2 cents on this issue

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