Looking at caliber/bullet backwards

This is a discussion on Looking at caliber/bullet backwards within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So, I've been reading these posts for a while regarding the "caliber wars" and "best ammo for X caliber". Lets think about it backwards. Would ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 19

Thread: Looking at caliber/bullet backwards

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array jtmoose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    123

    Looking at caliber/bullet backwards

    So, I've been reading these posts for a while regarding the "caliber wars" and "best ammo for X caliber". Lets think about it backwards. Would you be willing to get shot with a .380 or 9mm but not the .45 or .357 mag? Would you be willing to get shot with a 125gr JHP vs a 158gr FMJ? I'm not willing to get shot with any of them for the same reason, "placed center mass or in the head will make me dead!" Should we all focus our energy on developing drills/exercises to make us faster at putting shots in the kill zone or am I looking at this wrong; will the ammo/caliber I choose dramatically effect my ability to defend myself and family?

    P.S. Before starting a new thread in the training discussions, can we make/merge a thread of drills to try? I searched but they seem to be one here, one there type. One drill for example that has helped me a lot is the "Ball & Dummy Drill". Thanks.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Ky Backwoods
    Posts
    3,805
    Ask experts (not me!) & they'll tell you; 9mm or larger, any mainstream LE approved ammo will do, practice, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. (Oh, and there's no such thing as too much high-end Professional Instruction!)
    There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.

  4. #3
    Moderator
    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    43,790
    It's not what you throw at 'em, it's where you hit 'em.
    Just ask David (of David and Goliath)...
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

    ***********************************
    Certified Glock Armorer
    NRA Life Member[/B]

  5. #4
    Distinguished Member
    Array Xader's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    1,517
    Well, this issue has been weighing on me lately.

    I've been considering carrying FMJs in my 1911, at least for a while. This is due to the fact that I dont even have enough JHPs to fill two mags, and all of them are starting to show evidence of setback from chambering. This is an issue because I cant get my hands on any of the only JHP I've found to feed 100% reliably in my gun.

    OTOH, ball ammo is relatively inexpensive, will feed reliably, and most importantly is available

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    2,342
    Well, I wouldn't be willing to be shot with a pellet gun or a slingshot either.......but that doesn't mean that either one is necessarily the best option in a defensive weapon!

    There's no doubt that shot placement trumps everything else, but focusing "all our energy" on training, while ignoring the very real differences in equipment options that are available strikes me as just as inadvisable as simply strapping on the biggest/baddest gun you can find and calling it a day without giving any thought to training and practice.

    At the end of the day, we need to be well practiced with a weapon system that meets our own individual needs, whatever those needs might be.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."

    Theodore Roosevelt

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,665

    Gabe Suarez's take on caliber

    From his latest newsletter. While I don't agree with him on everything, I think he is on the money here...
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    I get asked what I carry alot. Recently we have gotten into quite a few discussions about my choice of calibers as well as why. Specially when they hear that it is a 9mm. So here goes --

    1). 9mm holds more ammo and more ammo is a definite asset in a gunfight. I had a student that was attacked by three guys and his 1911 barely had enough. Another bad guy and he would have been screwed.

    2). With modern ammo there is virtually no difference in performance in the typical CCW loads (9mm, 40, 45).

    3). Ammo commonality and magazine commonality are a big issue. If you carry a 50 Auto +P+ and your dainty wife carries a mere 9mm you cannot support each other in the way that would be best.

    4). Anyone who believes in the reliability of One Shot Stops with a pistol is an idiot that has never seen any action outside his daydreams.

    Look gents, if it makes you feel better to carry a 45, do it. If you think that extra millimeter of size will help, then carry a 45. If you think you'd feel just fine at Mumbai with your 1911/45, then cool. Drive on. Its not my business to convice you otherwise.

    Me? I have seen lots of people shot to be able to say this.

    ALL HANDGUN CALIBERS ARE UNPREDICTABLE.

    I have seen guys get shot with just about everything and nothing will work every time. I know of a guy shot in the chest with a shotgun slug and who not only survived but kept fighting. The ONLY sure way, outside of a clean brain shot, and that is still in question, is to multiply the damage. How do we do that? by lots and lots of holes....hopefully in chest and face.

    One of my contacts in South America has a score of 47...many of those with a Glock 17 with Military FMJ. He prevailed by being generous with his trigger and accurate in his shooting. Good enough for me. For me, its a 9mm Glock 17 with alot of Corbon DPX rounds.

    Modern Technique schools created a cult of the 1911/45 and believe that it would work 19 times out of 20. Yet, Fairbairn, a man who was operational in the same general era as Cooper, states that one man he knew emptied his 45 into a thug whom he had to club into unconsciousness with the empty pistol after he kept fighting. So much for legendary stopping power.

    That is not to say the 45 is worthless, as it is certainly not. If I was limited by foolish laws to 10 rounds or less, or to FMJ ammo, I might opt for such a pistol, but I think the lack of capacity is a serious limitation.

    I investigated an attempted suicide once where a man shot himself in the head with a 1911. He lived and walked out of the ER. What does that prove? Nothing other than the 1911/45 is NOT the death ray excalibur its cultists would have us all assume.

    I was also present in an entry where a drug dealer was kiled with one shot from a Sig P226/9mm +P+ 115 gr JHP. The man fell before the Point Man could hit him again. What does that prove? That the 9mm is not the POS, or the "45 set on stun" MT people like to call it.

    For perspective I also saw several gang killings with 22 pistols. No lack of stopping power there.

    In my educated and experienced opinion, ALL handgun calibers will do about the same things in flesh. I have had ER docs tell me directly that it is impossible to tell what caliber a bullet is in the ER by the damage it does. We have info of the same things happening with just about every caliber out there. Chuck Taylor told me once of a Viet Cong who got his entire shoulder blown off by a 50 BMG that kept charging until he bled out. So again IMHO, the arguement of the Power Of The Pistol is simply a silly idea.

    We carry them for convenience and not for power. The secret to dropping the adversary is not the caliber, it is the volume and the placement. Period.

    So carry the biggest weapon you can control. That does not mean caliber. It means weapon size. And that includes capacity. For some guys with big hands it may mean a Glock 21, or a double stack Para Ordnance. For me, both of those pistols have an umanageable girth. I cannot shoot them as well as a Glock 17/22. If those who advocate them can, then I support their choice 100%.

    I have a friend named Pierre. he is a big man with big hands and can shoot a Desert Eagle as well as I can my Glock 17. It would be foolish for me to force him to carry a Glock 17 and equally so for him to tell me that only his D.E. was suitable for combat.

    Choose based on shootability - ignore the caliber...can you manage the weapon's size in your hand, in daily carry? Then choose on capacity. More ammo is more better. You will NOT be dropping one man with one shot. It will be taking more. One man, no big deal. Two men, maybe not a big deal. Three men and your seven shots begin looking bad. Four men and you will be forced to reload. But not with a high capacity weapon. Caliber is the last consideration to me.

    Anything in 9mm, 40 S&W, 357 Sig, 45 ACP, 38 Sp. will work about the same. So CHOOSE WHAT YOU LIKE. As I said, mine is a Glock 17 with three magazines of Corbon DPX (and a couple of happy sticks thrown in).
    __________________

    Gabe Suarez

    One Source Tactical
    Suarez International USA
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
    www.armedcitizensnetwork.org - member
    Glock 30, 19, 26; Ruger LCP (2), LCR, Mini 14; Remington 870; Marlin 336 .30-30
    CT Lasers

  8. #7
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Richmond VA
    Posts
    1,068
    Oh, let's not look at it backwards. Before you can practice "putting shots in the kill zone" rapidly and accurately, you have to choose a weapon. When you choose a weapon you have to choose a caliber. To shoot the weapon, you have to choose ammo. If you are wise, you want to choose the best ammo for the job. The choice of weapon, caliber and ammo impact your ability to shoot accurately. So, spending effort on the selection of weapon, caliber and ammo that you can shoot accurately and that is effective for the stated purpose is effort well spent, as far as I am concerned. Once you have accomplished that, then you can train to place your shots on target rapidly and accurately, with the ammo you intend to use.

    While it is true that the choice of ammo and caliber are irrelevant without accurate shot placement, I don't think anyone here has ever said that accurate shot placement is irrelevant if one chooses the right caliber and ammo. What is true is that accurate shot placement is unachievable if you cannot handle the weapon. Self-defense with a firearm is unachievable without effective ammunition.

    No, discussions of ammo and caliber are not a waste of time and effort. They are part of a much bigger and complex subject.
    - Tom
    You have the power to donate life.

  9. #8
    Senior Member Array highvoltage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    NH
    Posts
    1,121
    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    .......The secret to dropping the adversary is not the caliber, it is the volume and the placement. Period.....

    Gabe Suarez

    One Source Tactical
    Suarez International USA
    This is probably the most poignant sentence in the article.

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,665
    Indeed. I look at it like this:

    1. Bullet placement

    2. Penetration to the vitals

    3. Volume of fire

    I choose 9mm because I can control the recoil better than other calibers, which means better shot placement and more rapid delivery of follow-up shots. It penetrates more than the minimum needed, and allows for more ammo capacity in a given sized handgun. Works for me.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
    www.armedcitizensnetwork.org - member
    Glock 30, 19, 26; Ruger LCP (2), LCR, Mini 14; Remington 870; Marlin 336 .30-30
    CT Lasers

  11. #10
    Senior Member Array TheShadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Stuck In The 1970's
    Posts
    915
    Intersting Massad vid on Ammunition & Ballistics


    Massad Ayoob: "Follow the old rule... The most powerful weapon you can control in accurate rapid fire at multipul targets. Keep shooting until the subject is down and can no longer harm you... and we'll discuss it with the jury later."
    “Put your pain in a box. Lock it down. No man is stronger than one who can harness his emotions.” -Act of Valor

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array SatCong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,549
    I like 45acp & 10mm, after saying that I wouldn't want to get shot by a 22 cal. The bullet Wars.
    NRA PATRON LIFE
    BROWN WATER NAVY

  13. #12
    Administrator
    Array QKShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Off Of The X
    Posts
    34,567
    Would you rather get repeatedly beat on the head with an Aluminum baseball bat or a wooden one?

  14. #13
    Senior Member Array TheShadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Stuck In The 1970's
    Posts
    915
    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Would you rather get repeatedly beat on the head with an Aluminum baseball bat or a wooden one?
    Aluminum...

    I like the ringing sound it makes on contact
    “Put your pain in a box. Lock it down. No man is stronger than one who can harness his emotions.” -Act of Valor

  15. #14
    Distinguished Member
    Array Xader's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    1,517
    But wood just has that nostalgic "crack"

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array SatCong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,549
    Quote Originally Posted by Xader View Post
    But wood just has that nostalgic "crack"
    Yea, bone or wood crack?
    NRA PATRON LIFE
    BROWN WATER NAVY

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Ammo backwards in HK Mags
    By maddy345 in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: December 10th, 2009, 03:04 PM
  2. We, as a society, have our priorities backwards.
    By youngda9 in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: August 14th, 2008, 07:49 AM
  3. Magic bullet? Magic caliber? Magic gun?
    By Miggy in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: May 13th, 2007, 11:07 PM
  4. Woman's bra versus .45 caliber bullet
    By gimpy in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: January 6th, 2007, 10:11 AM
  5. Backwards ammo
    By JT in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: April 5th, 2006, 02:05 PM

Search tags for this page

9mm bullet backwards

,

chuck taylor 1911 effectivness

,

how to tell the caliber of a bullet

,

loading bullets backwards

Click on a term to search for related topics.