9mm Luger+P+ vs NATO 9x19mm Parabellum & CIP vs SAAMI

This is a discussion on 9mm Luger+P+ vs NATO 9x19mm Parabellum & CIP vs SAAMI within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; FYI TO THE CASUAL READER, DON'T TAKE MY POST AS FACT, I'M ASKING QUESTIONS, DON'T TAKE THIS THREAD AS FACT. Q: Most 9mm are rated ...

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Thread: 9mm Luger+P+ vs NATO 9x19mm Parabellum & CIP vs SAAMI

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    9mm Luger+P+ vs NATO 9x19mm Parabellum & CIP vs SAAMI

    FYI TO THE CASUAL READER, DON'T TAKE MY POST AS FACT, I'M ASKING QUESTIONS, DON'T TAKE THIS THREAD AS FACT.

    Q: Most 9mm are rated +P. If your rated +P, then you should be fine with every 9mm (NATO, CIP, or SAAMI) right?

    To start with a side topic, I believe a diet of 9mm Luger +P or NATO 9x19mm Parabellum, is going to increase the wear and tear on even a 9mm +P rated firearm. I imagine it will my thousands of rounds.

    I was reading a different thread, and it was stated that 9mm FIOCCHI was:

    Quote Originally Posted by nn View Post
    ...good ammo, little hotter than most.
    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    ...it is loaded to NATO specs, rather than SAAMI...
    I have been told this (more than once) and from personal experience would have stated Sellier & Bellot or Fiocchi are a little hotter. However, I also noticed the GR tends to be higher on the Sellier & Bellot rounds I've used, so I'm not sure.

    I don't know if the grain of a round increase the PSI, or is it just the powder, or is it both. Since a higher grain round does increase the feel of recoil (it does for me), I'm not sure that feeling is always related to increased PSI.

    Q: Non-NATO 9mm is termed Luger (both CIP and SAAMI use this term) however NATO is termed NATO 9x19mm Parabellum, and does not use Luger, right?

    CIP 9mm Luger rated 34,080 PSI.
    SAAMI 9mm Luger rated 35,000 PSI.
    9mm Luger +P rated 36,000 to 38,500 PSI (not sure if SAAMI rates +P).
    9mm Luger +P+ rated 42,000 PSI (not sure if SAAMI rates +P+).
    NATO 9x19mm Parabellum rated 36,500 PSI.

    Note: C.I.P. Commission Internationale Permanente (European SAAMI). Also, I don't know if what I listed is correct for PSI.

    Q: So if you pick up 9mm Luger Sellier & Bellot or Fiocchi, it would not be as hot as US made 9mm Luger right?

    Q: Unless the box states NATO 9x19mm Parabellum or 9mm Luger +P, it should be fine for a 9mm Luger rated firearm, right?

    Q: NATO 9x19mm Parabellum is really less pressure than 9mm Luger +P+, right?

    PS - As an example I've read Glock rates their 9mm pistols to 43,500 PSI, that should mean that a Glock should be able to do it all.
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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array boscobeans's Avatar
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    Where are Fiocchi products made?

    We have a manufacturing plant in Ozark, Missouri, where we load both shotshell and centerfire ammunition. We also import centerfire ammunition, reloading components, match grade rimfire ammunition and specialty/obsolete loads from our parent company in Italy. All products are loaded to either C.I.P. or SAAMI specifications.

    I have used plenty of Fiocchi and although they seem a little hotter than some typical range fodder (WWB etc.) they have never given me a problem and show no signs of over pressure or wear and tear on my handguns.

    Great stuff in my opinion.

    bosco

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    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    I don't know if the grain of a round increase the PSI, or is it just the powder, or is it both. Since a higher grain round does increase the feel of recoil (it does for me), I'm not sure that feeling is always related to increased PSI.
    Increased bullet weight means longer bullet that takes up more space in the casing and reduces the combustion volume. With the same powder charge and a heavier bullet, pressure will increase. Conversely, lower the bullet weight you increase the combustion volume and decrease pressure.

    CIP 9mm Luger rated 34,080 PSI.
    SAAMI 9mm Luger rated 35,000 PSI.
    9mm Luger +P rated 36,000 to 38,500 PSI (not sure if SAAMI rates +P).
    9mm Luger +P+ rated 42,000 PSI (not sure if SAAMI rates +P+).
    NATO 9x19mm Parabellum rated 36,500 PSI.
    CIP is 34,083 psi (proofed at 130%). SAAMI is 35,000 psi. SAAMI +P is 38,500 psi. SAAMI will not rate or endorse levels of +P+. They will allow certain cartridges to obtain the +P moniker. 9mm +P+ is not standardized.

    While the SAAMI system (psi) reads directly in the chamber, NATO and Europe (CIP) measure the pressure inch in front of the case mouth. This means the bullet will have to move past the transducer port before a reading is obtained. Since the NATO and European system sees a larger volume for the gas due to the bullet movement, ammunition loaded to NATO or European specs will test as over SAAMI pressures in a SAAMI test barrel.

    Q: So if you pick up 9mm Luger Sellier & Bellot or Fiocchi, it would not be as hot as US made 9mm Luger right?
    Depends. Some is loaded to CIP and some is loaded to SAAMI. Neither are members of SAAMI to my knowledge so they can load to whatever they want.

    Q: Unless the box states NATO 9x19mm Parabellum or 9mm Luger +P, it should be fine for a 9mm Luger rated firearm, right?
    Yes.

    Q: NATO 9x19mm Parabellum is really less pressure than 9mm Luger +P+, right?
    9mm Luger is used in America for the SAAMI load. 9mm Parabellum is used worldwide for the CIP/European load. 9mm NATO is used for the NATO Stanag 4090 compliant ammunition which is loaded to 41,415psi.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

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    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    9mm Luger is used in America for the SAAMI load. 9mm Parabellum is used worldwide for the CIP/European load. 9mm NATO is used for the NATO Stanag 4090 compliant ammunition which is loaded to 41,415psi.
    WOW!!!!

    From the OP:
    PS - As an example I've read Glock rates their 9mm pistols to 43,500 PSI, that should mean that a Glock should be able to do it all.
    As a commercial reloader, can you confirm this? Do you know if this means the entire action is rated to 43,500 or just the barrel?
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    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    As a commercial reloader, can you confirm this? Do you know if this means the entire action is rated to 43,500 or just the barrel?
    SAAMI rates the chamber only. I cannot speak to the validity of that statement as I focus on cartridge specifications, not firearms specifications. That is beyond my expertise.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

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    VIP Member Array automatic slim's Avatar
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    Something else to consider is that imported ammunition loaded to NATO specs is also used for submachine guns and is hotter so that it functions reliably in those types of guns.
    "First gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand."
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    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    SAAMI rates the chamber only.
    I knew that. :)

    I cannot speak to the validity of that statement as I focus on cartridge specifications, not firearms specifications. That is beyond my expertise.
    I thought you might know, anyway.

    Thanks,
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

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    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    WOW!!!!As a commercial reloader, can you confirm this? Do you know if this means the entire action is rated to 43,500 or just the barrel?
    I think you know this, but don't take anything I've posted in this thread as fact. It is mostly based off information on the internet, and that can be unreliable.
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    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    I think you know this, but don't take anything I've posted in this thread as fact. It is mostly based off information on the internet, and that can be unreliable.
    Really?????
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

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    Sellior & Bellot Ammo in 9mm

    My local range sells the S&B ammo in 9mm and it is a bargain
    compared to most other ammo (for the FMJ round point) used
    for target practice. It's even sealed at primer/bullet and good for wet weather use...that's why the Seals like it I guess?
    Used to be $6 a box before O was elected.
    Now it's probably $10-15. I've fired about 300 rnds thru my
    Ruger P95DC with no problems. Seems to love the stuff. It shoots
    about the same (based on recoil) of Winchester (Walmart Red, White
    & Blue box), but is much more accurate than most and all security guards I know locally have used it, even to qualify with & love it.
    Also, I've fired about 100rnds of it thru my 1911A1 that's customized with 0 problems. It burns clean, unlike Winchester & Remington (the yellow box UMC is total junk in any caliber I've seen it shot thru) or PMC that leaves a mess to clean out of the gun.

    9mm handguns seem to prefer the lighter bullet weights I have noticed though. Have saw several short barrel/compact guns that will jam if you try to use 147grain bullets and would not recommend them.

    Hirtenburger ammo that came into the US for a while had the
    regular red box and a brown box...the brown box was German Subgun ammo that avg. 1657fps in 9mm. It will crack the frame of a S&W 5906 after about 500rnds. Know this because it wrecked a friend's gun. I have shot some of it sparingly and keep a clip for self defense. It is a 90grn copper jacket with lead tip bullet & goes thru a 4X4-probably will plow thru about 3 people if bad guys get too deep.

    Anytime you use +P or the +P+ ammo, you are shortening the life of the gun. Especially true of the S&W guns such as their Air-weight revolvers. Always inspect any firearm for frame/rail cracks when cleaning. My bud & myself almost got blew up once when he bought a new Springfield 1911 model in 9mm and the old shopkeepers gave us two boxes of ammo that turned out to be subgun ammo. It was worse than firing a .50 cal Desert Eagle and we luckily stopped and asked expert advice (the expert told us we were lucky and called-really had a talk with the salesmen about almost killing us!)
    If it's too hot...it's probably not supposed to be shot out of it.
    Except in cases like the 8mm Mauser shoulder wrecker.

    Sometimes though you don't get a warning.
    When reloading you have to be xtra careful.
    Federal primers fyi are about 2000PSI hotter than CCI or Winchester Primers. That's why they usually don't fail, but you have to use a press to load them and a Lee Hand Reloader will make them explode, setting off the whole primer tray. Lee now has a warning against using F primers in their equipment. Friend found out the hard way-luckily he was wearing eye protection. Got pock-marked scars on his face and blew them around the corner into the next room!

    Metal's breaking point is around 40,000psi. It's always best to start with the "lightest" reload possible. Usually I have found that the most accurate is "under" the factory load specs on most ammo.
    Have also noticed in ballistic jello tests that the lighter weight load in
    HP seems to cause the biggest entrance wound & most extended damage into the target...cause it's moving a little faster I guess.
    Anyone know what's best, please let us know as I'm no expert an
    open to criticism to find what works!!!

    The worst scenario I have seen (among idiots that put too much powder in the case or not enough causing a squib load-stuck bullet in barrel) is the .40 caliber. If you study the reloading specs, there is almost 0 room for error on that load and it only takes few grains over to destroy the gun as the case pressure is "already" very near the maximum point where metal can break. Have knew of two Glock 40's being destroyed from just a little over. I never recommend a .40 to anyone. If a 9mm won't get the job done, stick with the .45. The 10mm is hotter than dangit too, but usually just breaks the springs and eventually wears the rails so bad they have to be peaned back to specs or cracks them. It's purpose was to have more rounds & same power as the .45 but why mess with perfection. It didn't work, so somebody decided to invent the .40???If you can't hit the bad guy with 8 rounds, just throw the thing at them and run like hell cause you didn't practice enough!
    Measure twice, inspect it good and happy reloading.

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    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    All hot loads do is wear the gun out faster.

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    And increase velocity, increase energy, decrease bullet drop, increase fun.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

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    increased fun.
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    Something else to keep in mind is that those "standards" are for maximum pressures. That does not mean that every load from every manufacturer is loaded to that pressure. I imagine the premium defensive loadings are probably right there near the limit, but FMJ "target" ammo I would not be surprised if it was down loaded a bit.
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    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Something else to keep in mind is that those "standards" are for maximum pressures. That does not mean that every load from every manufacturer is loaded to that pressure. I imagine the premium defensive loadings are probably right there near the limit, but FMJ "target" ammo I would not be surprised if it was down loaded a bit.
    It's possible, but I wouldn't bet any money on it. Speer's web site lists the same velocity/energy for its Lawman Training ammo as it does for the Gold Dots. The last time I looked, Winchester had essentially the same specs for their USA line as for the Silvertips.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

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