Hornady Critical Defense .40 Coming...

Hornady Critical Defense .40 Coming...

This is a discussion on Hornady Critical Defense .40 Coming... within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I talked to a spokesperson at Hornady inquiring if they intended to offer their Critical Defense in a .40 round. He indicated they did plan ...

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Thread: Hornady Critical Defense .40 Coming...

  1. #1
    Member Array GoldenSaber's Avatar
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    Hornady Critical Defense .40 Coming...

    I talked to a spokesperson at Hornady inquiring if they intended to offer their Critical Defense in a .40 round. He indicated they did plan on that caliber but that they could not specify a time table as to when Hornady would bring it to market.

    As for me, I'll be eagerly awaiting it.
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    Member Array gglass's Avatar
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    Hornady Critical Defense - Behold the power of marketing!
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    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    What does this Critical Defense Ammo do that my 155 or 180 Grain Federal loads don't?

    There is reams of documentation on the Federal loads. Does Hornaday have any real life stats on their ammo yet?

    I don't tend to get too enthused about new ammo until it has been proven on the street to some degree. My momma and daddy didn't raise me to be a Beta tester.

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    Last edited by BikerRN; October 1st, 2009 at 04:09 AM. Reason: typo

  4. #4
    Member Array jjkjr's Avatar
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    is this what your talking about?

    Bass Pro Independence MO has had this for a couple weeks. Today they had 15 boxes of it.

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    No - the Critical Defense is a different product.

  6. #6
    Member Array jjkjr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenSaber View Post
    I talked to a spokesperson at Hornady inquiring if they intended to offer their Critical Defense in a .40 round. He indicated they did plan on that caliber but that they could not specify a time table as to when Hornady would bring it to market.

    As for me, I'll be eagerly awaiting it.
    welp...... i guess i should say that if i wanted 40 go ahead and get the xtp......
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  7. #7
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenSaber View Post
    As for me, I'll be eagerly awaiting it.
    Same here. I think it's a great bullet design and powered by the .40 caliber. Yeah, that'll get it done.

    Hornady Critical Defense - Behold the power of marketing!
    So, are ya saying the video recorded ballistics test are just hype? Hornady has always produced quality ammo as far I can date back, and this is just another quality offering from a fine ammo supplier. JMO
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  8. #8
    Member Array gglass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    Same here. I think it's a great bullet design and powered by the .40 caliber. Yeah, that'll get it done.



    So, are ya saying the video recorded ballistics test are just hype? Hornady has always produced quality ammo as far I can date back, and this is just another quality offering from a fine ammo supplier. JMO
    Is it hype? In as much as it is marketing...yes. I am in the business of marketing, and it is the job of anyone in this profession to remove the warts from a product when presenting it to the public. Do you really think that they would show a failure in their marketing video?

    If you want to see a failure of Hornady's Critical Defense, you need look no further than testing done last year by Dr. Gary Roberts.

    Dr. Roberts quote, "notice the failure of the Hornady .38 Sp 110 gr FTX "Critical Defense" load to expand after 4 layers of denim".

    BUG's: .380 ACP vs. .38 Sp - M4Carbine.net Forums

    My real point in saying "Behold the power of marketing", is that the moment Hornady's FTX hit the market with their famous video, the Hornady fanboys instantly proclaimed it as the greatest SD ammo ever. No real-world testing required. Now that is some powerful marketing.

    Hornady's Critical Defense may well be "all that", but I will never blindly accept any manufacturers claim as gospel. I need a little more real-world testing to trust my life to to any product.
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  9. #9
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    IMO, Any manufacturer that can produce a round that can throw a 90gr projectile at around 900 fps or better and deliver close to 200 fp of energy is good enough for me. I'm not expecting my .380 BUG to stop anyone with one shot. IMO, That's what follow up shots are for. As to the failures, you gotta have failures in-order to create a fix, not to mention the fact that, (how many folks do you know running around wearing 4 layers of denim ). For me it's none, and from the vids I've seen on the testing. I'm thinkin the round will do as it's supposed to do, way more than it'll fail. Not trying to totally disagree with ya at all, just my perspective on the matter. Take care.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

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  10. #10
    Member Array stoprilshoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gglass View Post
    If you want to see a failure of Hornady's Critical Defense, you need look no further than testing done last year by Dr. Gary Roberts.

    Dr. Roberts quote, "notice the failure of the Hornady .38 Sp 110 gr FTX "Critical Defense" load to expand after 4 layers of denim".

    BUG's: .380 ACP vs. .38 Sp - M4Carbine.net Forums
    if your only looking at what you want to see look no farther.

    if you want to see the truth look @ the 5 other rounds that fail to expand. its more a factor of the low velocity of the .38sp round IMO. i like my HP's to travel over 1100fps whenever possible.
    :)


    i dont feel the 4 layer test is a good real world test but does give another data point.

  11. #11
    Member Array cocojo's Avatar
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    gglass, read the rest of Dr. Roberts testing. He called Hornaday about this testing and they sent him more ammo. This time it worked as it was designed. He tested the famous Speer +P 135 38 in denum and that failed. Being a newer round that non +p 110 FXT may have needed some tweeking or maybe they has a batch with a lighter than spec powder change. Whatever the reason the ammo performed the way it was designed. What happened to the 135's? Maybe the same thing. Stephen Camp also tested the non +P 110's and had good results. I like the fact that it gave up some expansion for deeper penetration. 12 inches in bare gell and 14 with denum and expanding in the mid 40's is a nice round for a non +p 38 special out of a 2 inch gun. That's great performance for a low power non +P 38 special, real nice performance. Look up "Best Choices for self defense ammunition". Go to 38 FXT vCor Bon DPX +P v Speer 135 +p. Remember this is not +p rated ammuntion. Great for my older Colts and S&W 37. I like it.

  12. #12
    Member Array gglass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cocojo View Post
    gglass, read the rest of Dr. Roberts testing. He called Hornaday about this testing and they sent him more ammo. This time it worked as it was designed. He tested the famous Speer +P 135 38 in denum and that failed. Being a newer round that non +p 110 FXT may have needed some tweeking or maybe they has a batch with a lighter than spec powder change. Whatever the reason the ammo performed the way it was designed. What happened to the 135's? Maybe the same thing. Stephen Camp also tested the non +P 110's and had good results. I like the fact that it gave up some expansion for deeper penetration. 12 inches in bare gell and 14 with denum and expanding in the mid 40's is a nice round for a non +p 38 special out of a 2 inch gun. That's great performance for a low power non +P 38 special, real nice performance. Look up "Best Choices for self defense ammunition". Go to 38 FXT vCor Bon DPX +P v Speer 135 +p. Remember this is not +p rated ammuntion. Great for my older Colts and S&W 37. I like it.
    I have in fact read the follow-up report by Dr. Roberts many times. The one thing I found suspicious in the second report is that Dr. Roberts did not use off the shelf Hornady ammuntion, but rather he allowed Hornady to submit their own hand picked samples to test. (Will you be purchasing a hand selected box of FTX when you go to your local dealer? I doubt it.) That is not to say that I find Dr. Roberts' second evaluation was necessarily flawed, but it leaves room for questions. I did not see that he allowed any other manufacturers to do this. It was a little strange that the Gold Dot 135's functioned admirably in the first test, but faired quite poorly in the second... But, I digress.

    I did not place Gold Dot 135's over the Critical Defense 110's. I simply pointed to one of the first real evaluations of Hornady's FTX ammunition that cast some doubts on its performance... This at a time when everyone was universally hailing FTX "Critical Defense" as the next BIG thing in self-defense ammunition. Hence my phrase, "Behold the Power of Marketing".

    With my marketing background, I tend to question marketing claims and hype more than most. I think that everyone should carry whatever ammunition floats their boat, but I tend to be a little more analytical when choosing something that may save my life. Or, you could just follow the advise of Dr. Roberts, in which he says, "As always, don't get too wrapped in the nuances of ammunition terminal performance. Spend your time and money on developing a warrior mindset, training, practice, and more training".
    Last edited by gglass; October 9th, 2009 at 05:18 PM.
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  13. #13
    Member Array cocojo's Avatar
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    gglass, you bring out a good point on the hand select issue. I personally don't think it was done, but we really don't know, which lends doubt. I know if Dr Roberts thought about Hornaday hand selecting rounds, that he would have scoffed at it. Roberts may know them personnaly and possibly trusts them, who knows unless we ask him. I would give the benefit of the doubt to Dr Roberts. If anything issues were brought to their attention and possibly corrected. If anything, only a positive can come from this. Including fixing any issues that may be wrong with this round. I have to say that marketing was not an issue for me, I don't buy into all the hype. I also read that misfires were going on with this line of ammunition. I have not experienced any issues.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array chrise2004's Avatar
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    i'll be interested to try this out!
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  15. #15
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    I use this in .380 in my wife's LCP - alternating with FMJ-Flat Points. The .380 CD gets about 10" penetration in gel - a bit less than the FBI standard, which is why I alternate with the FMJ.

    I had more 9mm Federal EFMJ 124 gr +P on backorder for months at Streicher's. Called them a few days ago - still no ETA on the EFMJ. So, I had them switch my order to the 9mm 115 gr CD - it's not +P, but seems to work fairly well from the tests I've seen. Here's one:

    http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/9mm/gel9.htm

    I like the concept of expanding bullets that do not have a traditional hollow cavity that can get plugged, wrapped, or crushed.

    I've also used PowRBall, but they are light weight for caliber (9mm is only 100 gr), and every test I've seen shows the core and jacket separating - not good. They are also a bit "snappy" in recoil.

    I've also read some troubling reports of failures with EFMJ not expanding. Seems like the CD design would be more reliable. I also like how "pointy" it is - seems like it would feed well in a semi auto.

    I'll try some in my G19 and 26 when I get them in - but I have little doubt they will work just fine. As a bonus, not being +P means firing a burst should be easy due to less recoil.

    Hornady's ads say the CD rounds will "expand every single time!" I don't know about that...but they do seem like a good design overall.
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