XM40HC (Federal HST in white box)

This is a discussion on XM40HC (Federal HST in white box) within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Easy fellas! Since the contract specifications are unknown to me I'm never sure just which spec was not met was. It could be cosmetic such ...

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Thread: XM40HC (Federal HST in white box)

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Knuckledrager's Avatar
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    Easy fellas! Since the contract specifications are unknown to me I'm never sure just which spec was not met was. It could be cosmetic such as the lack of nickel plating on the case, the type of sealant on the primers or it could be something more important such as a variation in the bullet's jacket. Whatever the reason for the X designation, I would not use it as defensive/offensive/duty/service ammo. I will happily use it at the range any time. This is is from the guy that inspects each round in each box of ammo put into a defensive role. This includes visual inspection as well as determination of the average weight of the round, then weighing of each individual round. Ok, I'm a freak about this stuff but It decreases the chances of getting bad ammo when it's needed the most.
    "The liberty of the individual is no gift of civilization. It was greatest before there was any civilization." Sigmund Freud

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array Knuckledrager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    It's amazing the nonsense that floats around the Internet as fact.

    XM40HC is the standard designation for the LE load. LE contracts are generally packaged in generic packaging.
    FWIW, after checking all of the product information from ATK that I have, was unable to locate anything labeled "XM40HC". Since we're always looking for something better, I would be interested in the specs on the load that you are referring to.
    "The liberty of the individual is no gift of civilization. It was greatest before there was any civilization." Sigmund Freud

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array cmdrdredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knuckledrager View Post
    Easy fellas! Since the contract specifications are unknown to me I'm never sure just which spec was not met was. It could be cosmetic such as the lack of nickel plating on the case, the type of sealant on the primers or it could be something more important such as a variation in the bullet's jacket. Whatever the reason for the X designation, I would not use it as defensive/offensive/duty/service ammo. I will happily use it at the range any time. This is is from the guy that inspects each round in each box of ammo put into a defensive role. This includes visual inspection as well as determination of the average weight of the round, then weighing of each individual round. Ok, I'm a freak about this stuff but It decreases the chances of getting bad ammo when it's needed the most.
    They can't sell it if it doesn't work. Federal wouldn't want to risk bad press from agencies that have large orders from them.

    BTW: you do know that EVERYTHING man made has variances and wouldn't be 100% identical every single time right? That being the case I would suspect even their nickle cased HST to have some slight variances but people carry it daily.
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  5. #19
    Member Array stoprilshoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
    They can't sell it if it doesn't work. .
    sure they can, the X means its a second as in X outs, sold @ a discount for training only.

    infact the XM193 is not even fit for training by the military as that is all m193 is used for.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array cmdrdredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoprilshoot View Post
    sure they can, the X means its a second as in X outs, sold @ a discount for training only.

    infact the XM193 is not even fit for training by the military as that is all m193 is used for.
    You know what LIABILITY is? No? Let me explain it. Lets say they shoot it, and someone gets hurt they will check the ammo. If it is found to be over spec BY ANY MARGIN (lets say 3fps) then they have a fit.

    This is CIVILIAN market.

    And that's my opinion on it.
    Last edited by cmdrdredd; October 10th, 2009 at 12:45 PM. Reason: spelling
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
    -Thomas Jefferson

    Laws are restrictive but sometimes necessary to maintain a civil society. Rights are nonrestrictive but are always necessary to maintain a free society.

  7. #21
    Member Array stoprilshoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
    You know what LIABILITY is? No?
    This is CIVILIAN market.

    And that's my opinion on it.

    maybe it would be better to ask federals opinion on it before you form one in stone, like i said.

    its my undestanding ALL HST ammo is to be sold ONLY to LEO per federal rules.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knuckledrager View Post
    FWIW, after checking all of the product information from ATK that I have, was unable to locate anything labeled "XM40HC". Since we're always looking for something better, I would be interested in the specs on the load that you are referring to.
    Ammo produced under large-lot contracts are not normally listed in the public-available catalogues. It often has specifications that vary from the run-of-the-mil production - generally at the request of the purchasing agency. Hence the "X" designation on the boxes.

    Remember, these contracts are for large quantities. in 2008 Winchester got a one-year contract from the FBI worth $54 million dollars. Care to guess how much ammo that comes to?
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  9. #23
    Member Array TDSUS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    Ammo produced under large-lot contracts are not normally listed in the public-available catalogues. It often has specifications that vary from the run-of-the-mil production - generally at the request of the purchasing agency. Hence the "X" designation on the boxes.
    Dead on!

    This is contract OVER RUN ammunition.

    The HA was produced specifically for ICE (Border Patrol). Made specific to their specs hence the 135gr HST load.

    Remember guys that Federal and Winchester both swear that there is a significant difference in "LEO" ammunition. Federal would have you believe that the HST round in the 50 round box is "different" than the HST load in the 25 round box labeled "Homeland Defense".
    Winchester likewise would have you believe that the RA40B (LEO) is different from the PDX1.

    NOPE! The difference is the round count and price, nothing more.

    If you call Federal the first question they ask is what agency your with. If your not LEO they see no need to spend the 20 minutes explaining anything to you.

    For the record the rounds TDS ships to departments nationwide are marked XM as well...........

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array Knuckledrager's Avatar
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    The points that I was trying to make Gentlemen, were this:

    1 "X" designation indicates that the ammo was off spec for whomever speced out the order in the first place. Since I don't know the original specs I cannot know why it failed to meet spec. Maybe it's a big deal maybe it's not but without the aforementioned information, the reasons for the "X" will remain an unknown.

    2. The gun, if carried for defensive purposes, is nothing less than an emergency rescue tool. The concept of "first time every time" needs to be the gold standard. People agonize over the best lube, springs, holsters, caliber etc. I think the reliability of the ammo is probably more important. If the reasons for the "X" designation are unknown, how can one be sure the ammo is as reliable as possible. Reliability means more than HP expansion.

    My personal experiences with "X" ammo have been limited to the training arena. I have fired more than a few rounds of the stuff. I can tell you that there have been significantly more "bad" rounds of "X" ammo than in any other type from any manufacturer. The problems have been: damaged cases, dead primers, bad crimps, improperly seated bullets, squibs and one scary double charge. Now, I have had them with first run ammo too (except the double charge) but not nearly as often. I cannot provide a percentage of "X" ammo quality issues vs top shelf issues. I can tell you that I have a coffee can full of bad "X" rounds. Unless the zombies are at the door, and all of the other stuff is gone, I will not trust my life nor the lives of those I may need to defend to "X" ammo. That is just my choice.

    Let me take a minute look at other possible "X" products and services. My doctor did NOT graduate from the "Hollywood Upstairs School of Medicine" nor do I buy my parachutes from "Mel's Big Bait Shoppe and Parachute Emporium". Arguably both of those things are "emergency rescue" related items. I would get first quality products from reputable manufacturers. I'm willing to bet that there are a few in the crowd who like their cars and will avoid putting cheap "no name" fuel in them. Even if it costs a couple of pennies more. Why would we load our defensive weapons with something that could be less that what it was supposed to be? It may work fine but, it may not. A gunfight would be a bad place to find out that the "X" had iffy primers!

    IMHO, the "first time every time" doctrine mandates that we take every step available to us to reduce the chances that our weapons could fail when we need them the most. We carry to protect ourselves, our families and, if need be total strangers. If we accepted the responsibility to defend, we have the responsibility to make sure we have the best tools available.

    Lastly, these things are my opinion. They're based on observations and about 16 yrs of professional shooting experience. That only means that someone else buys my ammo and pays me to shoot it. It doesn't provide me with a hot line to the holy grail of ammo truths. It does, however allow me to see what goes bang "first time every time". "X" ammo 'aint it.

    I hope that nobody here ever has to fire a shot to protect themselves or others. I also hope that everyone here has the proper working equipment so that, should that day ever come, they have a solid pistol with good working ammo.

    Sorry for running off at the finger tips. Stay safe everyone!

    KD
    "The liberty of the individual is no gift of civilization. It was greatest before there was any civilization." Sigmund Freud

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array digitalexplr's Avatar
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    All the HST's I've ever had, .45, .40 and 9mm have been with nickle casings.

    BTW, I just got a couple of boxes of .40S&W HST's in 165gr, Federal colored boxes, from ammunitiontogo.com for $24.95 per box of 50.

    On the box is says, "Federal Premium Law Enforcement Ammunition". On the side of the box it says, "This product designed and manufactured exclusively for Law Enforcement agencies." The designation is P40HST3.
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  12. #26
    Senior Member Array torrejon224's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoprilshoot View Post
    maybe it would be better to ask federals opinion on it before you form one in stone, like i said.

    its my undestanding ALL HST ammo is to be sold ONLY to LEO per federal rules.
    There is NO federal law, rule, statute, etc that requires an ammo maker to sell certain ammo to LE Agencies only. It is entirely up to the maker who they market their ammo to. Once it leaves the plant and goes to a wholesaler/retailer they can sell it to whoever they wish. Some will only sell to LE Agencies or LEO that provide a letter from their chief authorizing the purchase but others sell it to both LE or private individuals and that is entirely their right. Bottom line is that stamping the box "Law Enforcement Use Only" is a marketing strategy and not a federal, state or local requirement. I just love reading some of the so called "facts" that get posted on the web, don't you?

  13. #27
    Senior Member Array digitalexplr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    It's amazing the nonsense that floats around the Internet as fact.

    XM40HC is the standard designation for the LE load. LE contracts are generally packaged in generic packaging.
    Not according to this: LE - Tactical HST
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  14. #28
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digitalexplr View Post
    Not according to this: LE - Tactical HST
    It's a special contract LE load, not a catalogue item. My error in not proofreading before posting. Please read post numbers 22 and 23.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  15. #29
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    White Box Federal HST

    The only difference is the brass case. Military contracts stipulate brass cases, so any over-runs for milspec will be white box, brass case. Get 'em while you can!

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caboodle View Post
    The only difference is the brass case. Military contracts stipulate brass cases, so any over-runs for milspec will be white box, brass case. Get 'em while you can!
    With all due respect, what else would they be besides brass? US companies don't make ammo with steel cases and Blazer is the only company making aluminum cases. Blazer doesn't have military or LE contracts.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

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