Hornady Personal Defense

This is a discussion on Hornady Personal Defense within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by gglass Everyone should switch to Hornady. That will leave more Gold Dots Ranger T's and HST's on the shelf for me. I ...

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Thread: Hornady Personal Defense

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array digitalexplr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gglass View Post
    Everyone should switch to Hornady. That will leave more Gold Dots Ranger T's and HST's on the shelf for me.
    I concur 100%!
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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array cmdrdredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gglass View Post
    There was a follow up report in which Dr. Roberts allowed Hornady to submit another batch of FTX (hand picked if you ask me). It miraculously worked in the second round of testing. I'm sure that somebody will be right along with a link to the more successful testing.

    As for me, I'll wait until Hornady hand picks every bullet in the box before I'll buy it.
    Right, but as you can see. Dr. Roberts does not personally recommend any Hornady load for any caliber currently to market. That's good enough for me to use something different. Should it work? Probably yes, but I sleep better knowing that someone thoroughly tested the loading I carry and use in my defensive pistols and that same expert says it's good to go.

    Winchester White Box JHP from Wal Mart will probably work too, but few people rely on it because there are more tested rounds available that have real world working results from various situations and police agencies.
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  4. #18
    Member Array brobar's Avatar
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    I can't speak to the ballistics because I don't have the ability to do controlled ballistics testing. All I can go by is what I read and what I experience at the range. American Rifleman & Handgun magazine both gave favorable reviews. I took 50 rounds of Critical Defense and 50 rounds of Golden Sabers to the range today (along with 100 rounds of WWB FMJ) to do some testing. Yep... it was an expensive trip... but I want to know that what I'm feeding through my EDC is reliable. Both the Critical Defense & Golden Sabers both fed reliably with no FTEs or FTFs. Now I know there will be a difference between 124g and 115g but I didn't think it would be THAT noticeable. Even shooting the 115g Critical Defense side by side with the WWB 115g... it was noticeably less muzzle flip. I had great groupings with the Golden Sabers... but VERY tight and even better groupings with the Critical Defense. I went through 5 targets for each load (10 shots per target) and ever time the Critical Defense had better placement than the Golden Sabers. The control was better, less recoil, and it didn't seem as loud either but maybe that was just me.

    Nothing against the Golden Sabers... it is a great, tested load that is very reliable. Ballistics being the only ??? when it comes to the Critical Defense... if we can get some consecutive good reports on the CD then I'm sure I'll probably choose that to load my EDC. I'll probably go through here in the next few weeks and throw another 50 or so down range just to make sure... but if the next 50 were like the first 50 then I'm really going to enjoy it. They were a pleasure to shoot. BTW... the XD9sc is so much fun to shoot! I love it!

  5. #19
    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    I use hornady... ask the watermelon what he thought of my 200gr +p .45
    "I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

  6. #20
    Member Array stoprilshoot's Avatar
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    Hornady make some great premium loads. anybody thats dumping on them needs to get a clue.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array cmdrdredd's Avatar
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    If someone who is paid to test bullet designs, investigate the wound characteristics, and give recommendations doesn't recommend it I won't use it. That's that.

    Think about why the Winchester Ranger series, Federal HST series, and Speer Gold Dots always get recommended. They meet a set of requirements that some others do not.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
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    Laws are restrictive but sometimes necessary to maintain a civil society. Rights are nonrestrictive but are always necessary to maintain a free society.

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array AZ Desertrat's Avatar
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    Yes, as far as I have read, it is good to go. I am going to try some tomorrow.
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  9. #23
    VIP Member Array cmdrdredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Desertrat View Post
    Yes, as far as I have read, it is good to go. I am going to try some tomorrow.
    If by Try some you mean shoot at targets ok...as good as any FMJ.

    compare the results of it vs HST, Ranger T, Gold Dot, Golden Saber, DPX etc in a ballistic, wounding, and expansion test.

    I may seem like I'm really harping on something here and I am, I'm just a BIG proponent of realistic ballistics gel testing by 3rd parties. I am not a fan of any manufacturer who makes claims without real results and allowing a 3rd party to do the testing (MagSafe ammo for example), and am also not a fan of companies who fail a test then are allowed to send another sample and test again with completely different results. IMO that test should have been invalidated and another box be taken off the retail shelf and tested. Manufacturer may have hand picked the rounds in that particular shipment that was sent to Dr. Roberts after the failed testing. Plus, Hornady is about the only company I see who produces a video of their testing and puts it on the web. WHy would you need to do that? Shouldn't real world LEO accounts and expert 3rd party ballistic testing be enough? Oh wait...it's not.

    I'm not a fan of marketing unless the results back it up when tested. Am I hating on hornady? Not really, I simply believe results should always speak for themselves.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
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    Laws are restrictive but sometimes necessary to maintain a civil society. Rights are nonrestrictive but are always necessary to maintain a free society.

  10. #24
    Member Array brobar's Avatar
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    For those of you waiting for FBI passing ballistics testing... I hope you are not holding your breath! This round was manufactured with a distinct purpose in mind... close quarters self defense round. It is NOT an FBI round. It is NOT a LEO round. It was not designed to be shot through glass, through walls, through plywood etc. What it was designed for... it does so consistently and well. It was designed with CC in mind and takes into account the overwhelming majority of civilian self defense scenarios. *Most* people are not going to be defending themselves shooting through walls, shooting through glass, shooting through car doors, etc... Some of you may... that is why I say *most*. A lot of people won't feel comfortable unless they know their load can go through X amounts of Y hard material... and if they feel that way then I definitely don't think they will or should use this particular ammo. If you want a reliable ammo that covers hitting a bad guy through multiple layers of clothing (not car doors, glass, walls, tires, safes, refrigerators, etc...) then maybe this ammo might be the right stuff for you.

    Once again... it does not and will not meet FBI standards or most LEO standards when it comes to shooting through most stuff out there... but I don't think Hornady has ever... not even once said it was designed for the FBI or every day LEO. So if having what the men in black or men in blue have is that important to you... please don't buy it.

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array cmdrdredd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brobar View Post
    For those of you waiting for FBI passing ballistics testing... I hope you are not holding your breath! This round was manufactured with a distinct purpose in mind... close quarters self defense round. It is NOT an FBI round. It is NOT a LEO round. It was not designed to be shot through glass, through walls, through plywood etc. What it was designed for... it does so consistently and well. It was designed with CC in mind and takes into account the overwhelming majority of civilian self defense scenarios. *Most* people are not going to be defending themselves shooting through walls, shooting through glass, shooting through car doors, etc... Some of you may... that is why I say *most*. A lot of people won't feel comfortable unless they know their load can go through X amounts of Y hard material... and if they feel that way then I definitely don't think they will or should use this particular ammo. If you want a reliable ammo that covers hitting a bad guy through multiple layers of clothing (not car doors, glass, walls, tires, safes, refrigerators, etc...) then maybe this ammo might be the right stuff for you.

    Once again... it does not and will not meet FBI standards or most LEO standards when it comes to shooting through most stuff out there... but I don't think Hornady has ever... not even once said it was designed for the FBI or every day LEO. So if having what the men in black or men in blue have is that important to you... please don't buy it.
    Perhaps you forgot where Dr. Gary Roberts is recommending "Self Defense" ammo. Not ammo for the LEO. Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

    He even has a writeup on that page for overpenetration inside the home. If that's not written with the civilian in mind, I dunno what else to say. Having said that, Hornady isn't on the list.

    Let me reiterate what I said previously. There are people who use WWB JHP and are comfortable with that. It's ok. Really, even Dr. Roberts says you are free to choose any ammo you want. The recommendations he has made come from specific testing and data from himself and other ballistic experts from the FBI and elsewhere. It's not necessarily set in stone as being the only rounds that do the job, rather it's what the experts who have tested pretty much everything out there deem best. I'm not, and never did say Hornady rounds won't work. I'm only saying it doesn't make the list because of a specific failure to meet a very specific set of requirements. What those requirements are I'm not 100% sure and have never tried to be an expert. I only know what I've read, and what in my mind is more hype than results. Heck, even the new PDX1 ammo is marketed as the ammo that the FBI chose. It may be, but I wouldn't buy it based only on that.

    Above all, practice with whatever you choose so that you're comfortable putting shots on target. All else is secondary really.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
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    Laws are restrictive but sometimes necessary to maintain a civil society. Rights are nonrestrictive but are always necessary to maintain a free society.

  12. #26
    Member Array brobar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
    Perhaps you forgot where Dr. Gary Roberts is recommending "Self Defense" ammo. Not ammo for the LEO. Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

    He even has a writeup on that page for overpenetration inside the home. If that's not written with the civilian in mind, I dunno what else to say. Having said that, Hornady isn't on the list.
    Like I said... it isn't for everybody! And looking at his results... he says it right off the bat how he goes by FBI standards. So if the guy goes by FBI standards... then something that doesn't meet FBI standards is probably not going to meet his standards. I've never said (and never will say) that you or anyone else should use it. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here and say for all of those who complain about it not meeting FBI standards... exactly... it was not designed with going through glass, car doors, drywall, etc... in mind so it WON'T meet those standards and obviously because many ballisticians rate based upon FBI standards... it will not meet their standards either.

    It is a niche round. It might not fit your niche. If it doesn't fit your niche... I would probably suggest not buying or using it.

  13. #27
    Member Array stoprilshoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
    not a fan of companies who fail a test then are allowed to send another sample and test again with completely different results. IMO that test should have been invalidated and another box be taken off the retail shelf and tested. Manufacturer may have hand picked the rounds in that particular shipment that was sent to Dr. Roberts after the failed testing.

    why would you be biased @ Hornady?

    if the Dr. had a dought about the legitimate details of the replacement ammo, why would he test it as vailid? if you cant accept the validity of the ammo how can you accept the validity of the Dr.'s testing?


  14. #28
    Member Array brobar's Avatar
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    Where can I find Dr. Rober's ballistics results for the 9mm variant of the Hornady Critical Defense round. I may not be looking in the right spots... but I can't find it. Anyone kind enough to share? Thanks!

  15. #29
    Member Array stoprilshoot's Avatar
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    or .40S&W?

    :)

  16. #30
    Senior Member Array Slim_45's Avatar
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    My personal choice is Federal HST's
    although i could not get my hands on enough of them when i bought the new Kimber UC2 so i got some Winchester Ranger Talon's instead & i must say it's quite impressive also
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