Ummm, hmmm. Wait, what?
This is a discussion on Ummm, hmmm. Wait, what? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I know that this has been in place for a really long time, but I have never heard it put this way before. This is ...
October 23rd, 2009 04:36 PM
Ummm, hmmm. Wait, what?
I know that this has been in place for a really long time, but I have never heard it put this way before. This is taken from Bullet Glossary
Umm, isn't war about killing? I personally think war is insane, but this just seems quite odd, to be concerned about hurting someone you are trying to kill?
FMJ: full-metal jacket
Military round specified by Geneva Convention. Metal surrounds lead or steel core to prevent additional mushrooming of bullet, which may cause inhumane wounding
. Usually has lead-exposed base.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”
Originally Posted by UnklFungus
October 23rd, 2009 04:38 PM
It's actually from the Hague Convention, not the Geneva Convention.... but yeah, it's silly.
The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibits the use in warfare of bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body. This is often incorrectly believed to be prohibited in the Geneva Conventions, but it significantly predates those conventions, and is in fact a continuance of the St. Petersburg Declaration of 1868, which banned exploding projectiles of less than 400 grams, as well as weapons designed to aggravate injured soldiers or make their death inevitable. NATO members do not use small arms ammunition that is prohibited by the Hague Convention.
October 23rd, 2009 04:46 PM
The point wasn't about humane or inhumane. Not really. That is just a smokescreen. If a man is killed in battle so be it, wound a man and it ties up many more of his comrads.
Think of all the resources necessary behind the lines. There is more than one way to win a war. Also when the wounded start returning home think of the damage to moral.
Last edited by Gunnutty; October 23rd, 2009 at 05:07 PM.
We will be much better off when we learn to deal with things as they really are, instead of how we wish them to be!
October 23rd, 2009 04:47 PM
Makes as much sense as sterilizing the needle before giving an inmate a lethal injection, don't it?
"Stand your ground, don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here!" - John Parker April 19th, 1775 Lexington, MA
October 23rd, 2009 04:56 PM
My father suggested that the FMJ can actually be more beneficial in war.
When you get shot with the FMJ, it's less lethal than the JHP. Consequently, treating you ends up taking more time and resources than if you were simply killed by a JHP.
Anything that slows down your enemy is supposedly beneficial in war...
so is this true?
October 23rd, 2009 05:00 PM
It used to be, but Haji don't have medics and his buds don't care that he's hit.
Originally Posted by Nova
October 23rd, 2009 05:23 PM
So basically we're shooting terrorists who are only incapacitated long enough that when our soldiers walk up to them, they are alive enough to detonate a grenade for their "last hurrah."
October 23rd, 2009 05:28 PM
Is this why the special rounds the private operators were testing in Iraq, that killed the guy shot in the butt, stirred up so much trouble?
October 23rd, 2009 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by Gunnutty
"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." — Thomas Jefferson
October 23rd, 2009 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by CJ810
Never mind, I just looked it up....Personally I think that one shot the butt is BS, but yeah that's why they were PO'd. Too bad for them.
October 23rd, 2009 05:57 PM
JD, in one theater you are correct about the lack of medical care or taking away their dead/wounded buddies, the other one, not so much.
Nova, thats why we train to hit vital areas, and to hit our target until the threat is done. There are precautions I won't go into here on how to approach an enemy that has been shot.
Fortes Fortuna Juvat
Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor
October 23rd, 2009 09:23 PM
In addition to the legal issues, the military likes FMJ because it feeds better, and because it penetrates cover better than an expanding bullet.
The number of people killed because they didn't have "enough gun" is dwarfed by those who had none at all. Get a gun you will always carry, and add more capability as you grow.
October 23rd, 2009 09:24 PM
That's why .50BMG is a nice round to use for snipers. It's FMJ, but the velocity and the weight it has as it passes through the enemy is pretty devistating.
No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
Laws are restrictive but sometimes necessary to maintain a civil society. Rights are nonrestrictive but are always necessary to maintain a free society.
October 24th, 2009 06:15 AM
Getting into ballistics and what is and isn't inhumane, or which bullet kills better than the other is a never ending debate. Except For Ending Slavery, Fascism, Nazism, and Communism, WAR has Never Solved Anything. War may be hell, but IMO, far from insane.
Originally Posted by UnklFungus
Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Anyone Who Threatens It.
October 24th, 2009 07:47 AM
The Russians have found ways around the Hague Convention:
The Russian military issue 5N7-specification 5.45mm bullets are a somewhat complex full metal jacket design. The 56 gr (3.6 g) boattail projectile has a gilding-metal-clad jacket. The unhardened steel core is covered by a thin lead coating which does not fill the entire point end, leaving a hollow cavity inside the nose. The bullet is cut to length during the manufacturing process to give the correct weight. The base of the bullet is tapered to reduce drag and there is a small lead plug crimped in place in the base of the bullet.
The lead plug, in combination with the air space at the point of the bullet, has the effect of moving the bullet's center of gravity to the rear; the hollow air space also makes the bullet's point prone to deformation when the bullet strikes anything solid, inducing yaw. The brown-lacquered steel case is Berdan-primed. Its 39.37 mm (1.55 in) length makes it slightly longer than the 7.62x39mm case which measures exactly 38.60 mm (1.52 in). The primer has a copper cup and is sealed with a heavy red lacquer. The propellant charge is a ball powder with similar burning characteristics to the WC 844 powder used in 5.56x45mm NATO ammunition.
The 50 gr (3.2 g) tracer projectile has a shorter ogival profile and is green-tipped. The amount of igniter material provides for a burn of up to 800 m.
5.45x39mm 5N7 Cartridge Sectional Drawing
A: projectile jacket
B: steel core
C: hollow point
D: lead inlay
E: propelling charge
5.45x39mm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Naked and Starving as They are We Cannot Enough Admire the Incomparable Patience and Fidelity of the Soldiery" – George Washington, Valley Forge, 1777.
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