Will more muzzle energy incapacitate faster?

This is a discussion on Will more muzzle energy incapacitate faster? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by mcp1810 Are we all carrying more gun than we should? How do you mean "more gun than we should" As the country ...

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Thread: Will more muzzle energy incapacitate faster?

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Lewis128's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Are we all carrying more gun than we should?
    How do you mean "more gun than we should"
    As the country song says: That's like a girl that's too pretty or a car that's too fast.
    In a SD situation a Desert Eagle .44 auto mag is about right**, but I'd much rather CARRY an NAA Black Widow .22 WMR.
    Somewhere in between is a compromise that I can live with.
    Like the more experienced guys have said, find what works for you, and practice, practice practice.

    **(actually, I've never had the opportunity to try a .44 mag in any gun, so that may be overstating)
    The views expressed above are the opinion of the poster and may or may not be total bunk.
    Viewer discretion is advised.

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  3. #17
    Member Array GettingOld2's Avatar
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    One's ability to shoot well in combat is not the primary issue here, although I'm sure it is there. The type of ammunition involved here is very different than that used in combat. FMJ is required in a combat zone, not so for civilian usage.

    The complex interaction between modern hollow point expansion and velocity as well as materials encountered is why this question recurs and there is no definitive answer.

  4. #18
    Ex Member Array Sneaky's Avatar
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    Reread my posts and you will discover that I was talking shooting skills I learned as a Marine in combat!

    If you read my thead you will find that it involves two rounds! I did not ask for pointers on shooting better & what caliber to shoot. P.S I am very aware of the difference between full metal jacket & hollowpoint.

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-O-Matic View Post
    Your lack of respect & desire to argue is not what my thread is all about! ...
    Please post what is related to my thead & not give a Marine pointers on how to shoot!
    Don't know what you are talking about. I was trying to have an intelligent conversation. Thanks for your service.

    Good bye...
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  6. #20
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    1. "does having more muzzle energy incapacitate faster!" C-O-M

    I'm gonna try to answere your question as best I can. Probably gonna come out as oversimplistic, but its the best i can do.
    More muzzle energy 'should' incapacitate faster only up to the needed ME required to cause the bullet to reach the cns. In other words, one would have to know the minimum velocity and depth of penetration needed on the target at what distance to damage the cns enough to cause it to shut down. Anything more is potentially wasted energy, tho it can't hurt, and anything under that and you'll end up w/ a wound that may/may not stop your assailant immediately.

    2. "which would you pick for home defense & why?" C-O-M
    I, personally, would pick whichever one a) functioned as close to 100% in that particular pistol, b) placed as close to poa/poi at defensive distances, c) allowed the fastest, most accurate follow up shots. Having tested neither of these two particular rounds, I'd say its dealer's choice after testing. Both are from reputable companies w good track records.

    This is the quandry of handgun rounds for all times, I suppose: enough power in a carriable sized package. And it all hinges on that cns. If that's not the first thing damaged, an immediate stop cannot be guaranteed.
    So, yeah, more ME should incapacitiate sooner, if you get good hits. It sounds like you already got your stuff together. You've got training, exposure, experience under your belt. So my thought is you got the 'software' to make any 'hardware' work.

    Good luck, and thank you for your Service.

    dan

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jem102 View Post
    You have a 7.62 X 25 round that penetrates 12" and expands to .460?
    Yes, the Wolf 85 grain.
    Wolf 85gr Copper JHP

    And Lewis128, poor choice of words on my part. Perhaps, are we all carrying more gun than is necessary? I actually did carry a Desert Eagle .44 once. Once. ( memories of Johnny Dangerously!) That was just to tease an officer I know that was whining about only being allowed to carry a 9mm.

    Every now and then I just cant resist stirring the pot so to speak. In the real world, handgun rounds are a far cry from what Hollywood and the Brady bunch would have us believe. CDC stats show that better than 90% of shooting victims that are alive when they get to an E/R ultimately survive. The energy levels involved in typical defensive calibers are not different enough that on the street you can instantly tell the difference. But the energy level and transfer is part of the mechanism of injury. It is newtonian physics, conservation of energy. Any energy that is not disipated inside the target is not working us.

    Just for grins, grab an empty soda can, a full soda can and the head of a six pound sledge hammer. Drop each one on your foot. All three are going to have equal penetration, and about the same frontal area. Which one has more energy? If you could deploy each with equal accuracy and speed against a target you were seeking to incapacitate which one do you think would be your best choice?

    I routinely carry middle weight loadings in 9mm and .45acp and don't lose any sleep over it.
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  8. #22
    Ex Member Array Sneaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdsumner View Post
    1. "does having more muzzle energy incapacitate faster!" C-O-M

    I'm gonna try to answere your question as best I can. Probably gonna come out as oversimplistic, but its the best i can do.
    More muzzle energy 'should' incapacitate faster only up to the needed ME required to cause the bullet to reach the cns. In other words, one would have to know the minimum velocity and depth of penetration needed on the target at what distance to damage the cns enough to cause it to shut down. Anything more is potentially wasted energy, tho it can't hurt, and anything under that and you'll end up w/ a wound that may/may not stop your assailant immediatel

    2. "which would you pick for home defense & why?" C-O-M
    I, personally, would pick whichever one a) functioned as close to 100% in that particular pistol, b) placed as close to poa/poi at defensive distances, c) allowed the fastest, most accurate follow up shots. Having tested neither of these two particular rounds, I'd say its dealer's choice after testing. Both are from reputable companies w good track records.

    This is the quandry of handgun rounds for all times, I suppose: enough power in a carriable sized package. And it all hinges on that cns. If that's not the first thing damaged, an immediate stop cannot be guaranteed.
    So, yeah, more ME should incapacitiate sooner, if you get good hits. It sounds like you already got your stuff together. You've got training, exposure, experience under your belt. So my thought is you got the 'software' to make any 'hardware' work.

    Good luck, and thank you for your Service.

    dan

    Sometimes the simple explansion is both easier to understand and apply to my situation! Thank-You for your interesting insight towards muzzle energy & incapacitation!

    Think I'll have some coffee & watch some Sunday football!

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array Rmac58's Avatar
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    In my humble opinion, hitting a target close, defensively, 50 or even 100 feet per second faster is a non issue.
    Just hit it.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rmac58 View Post
    In my humble opinion, hitting a target close, defensively, 50 or even 100 feet per second faster is a non issue.
    Just hit it.
    I would be hard pressed to find any fault with your statement. Same deal with the a 50 to 100 ft lb difference in energy.
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  11. #25
    Senior Member Array Rmac58's Avatar
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    Just an observation.
    If you're even 100 feet away (highly unlikely in a defensive situation) does the bullet take a second to get there? Will the bad guy have time to duck out of the way once he/she/it hears the gun fire?

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-O-Matic View Post
    I own an HK45c handgun which has a 3.9 inch barrel and use this handgun for protecting my family. I have purchased Federal's HST-230+p which has aprox. 450 ft.lbs. of energy and travels at aprox. 950 ft. per sec. I have also purchased Doubletaps-185+p which has aprox. 550ft.lbs. of energy and travels out of my HK45c at 1175 ft. per sec..
    I know shot placement is vital-thats why I'm at our local range twice a month but I also know that in a shooting situation where you might not get ideal shot placement you have to count on what bullet will do the most tissue damage! My questions are does having more muzzle energy incapacitate faster! And number two question:Out of the fore-mentioned rounds -which would you pick for home defense & why?
    Thank-You for your time!
    Have you actually chronographed these rounds out of your gun, or are you relying on the manufacuters numbers in their tests?

    Which rounds are you more accurate with, and which can you get follow up shots on target faster with? Both rounds have been tested and are decent SD rounds, so in my mind it would boil down to accuracy.

    If everything is equal, I would choose the one with the most energy, but after checking accuracy, follow up time, and expansion, this assume both are totally reliable in your gun.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  13. #27
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Well, take .38 spl, .357 magnum and 9mm cartridges, then fire them in a gun with a 4" bbl. The bullet is of nearly the same size and weight (130gr .38, 125gr .357, and 124gr 9mm). We shoot 1000 rds of each. Then we select a good number of each in which the JHP expansion was fair to good. Let's also assume that a calibrated ballistic gelatin block is about as close as we'll get to a controlled entry into a "body" (since actual bodies are going to have major variations in bones, sinew, angle of entry, etc).

    So far as I understand how this works, with all of those other factors controlled, the major remaining difference in the nature of the wound profile created would be the amount of force the bullet is able to impart.

    The measure of this comparative distinction between these three bullets would be the estimate of muzzle energy, would it not?

    Ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle, for several popular JHP cartridges:

    .38 spl, 130gr -- 189
    .38 spl +P, 130gr -- 251
    .357 mag, 125gr -- 544
    .357 mag +P, 125gr -- 710
    9mm, 124gr -- 364
    9mm +P, 124gr -- 462


    Controlling for the other variables (length of bbl, whether expansion occurred, etc), the major factor would be the amount of force in that bullet.

    If the only real variable, here, is the amount of energy in the bullet, wouldn't one expect to find greater damage correlating to the greater energy?

    It would be simple (though a little expensive) to perform this test. Anyone game?
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  14. #28
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    This topic reminded me of a few things. I thank you all for that.

    Chiefly, what has been on my mind, as I read the various post is that I am playing back in my mind how certain targets react to being shot and the respective statistics of those rounds in real life shootings.

    The 9mm, standard pressure .45 ACP and .40 S&W produce nothing spectacular when shooting plastic soda bottles and tin cans on a Saturday morning. When I start shooting those same targets with my various .357 magnums, "King of the Street" load, I find that the targets react very differently. It's like night and day. With the various "carry" loads I shoot them with they topple over or maybe fly a few feet. Try this with the .357 Magnum and a 125 Grain non-reduced power load and you will see a difference.

    Now compare the various defensive loadings by just about any reputable statistics and you will see that the old .357 magnum 125 Grain JHP is still the standard by which all defensive loads are compared to. Many have come close, but none have exceeded it. While my naked eye is not scientific, I do notice a difference.

    Yes, accuracy is the most important, but I do believe power plays a role as well. I don't know how much of a role, but just because I can't measure it doesn't mean it's not a factor. I can tell you that my carry load in .357 magnum produces over 550 ft/lbs of energy and one manufacturer's load produced 625 ft/lbs of energy. Those are numbers I'm willing to bet my life on. The other calibers, not so much.

    Biker

  15. #29
    Senior Member Array coffeecup's Avatar
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    Shot placement is King

    Size of the hole is Queen

    Penetration is the Prince

    Energy dump is the Prime Minister

    Any more questions ?

  16. #30
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    yes.
    why is 'size of hole' placed over 'penetration'?

    Not to argue, just curious.

    thanks,

    dan

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