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+P vs Standard Pressure

14K views 38 replies 20 participants last post by  Bart 
#1 ·
I recently switched from carrying a Taurus 709 loaded with 147g SGD's standard pressure. I never considered +P ammo as the gun wasnt rated for it. Then I switched to a S&W 908. The 908 is "kind of" rated for +P. S&W says that you can use a "limited amount" of +p ammo but not to use it all the time.

So thus the question becomes is it worth changing over from standard pressure to +P ammo for defense purposes? I am inclined to stick with standard pressure as I think it would be eaiser to put more rounds on target in less time because of recoil but I don't wan't to rule out +p if it is mpre effective. Since we all know that hanguns aren't the instant death rays portrayed in the movies I want to milk every bit of performance I can out of it.
 
#2 ·
I will not claim to be any sort of expert. Of any type. For much of anything. I will give you my thoughts based solely on my experience, and my research. 'Research' being: reading books on shootings, speaking w/ officers, depts, and soldiers who have shot someone in the course of their duties. (my father was a firearms instructor in this county, and that gave my a lot of access to these guys for q/a).
In a pistol/revolver round for defense, my criteria are:
reliability in THAT gun,
poa/poi,
fast, ACCURATE follow up shots,
availability.

First, reliability. If it dont work, it dont work. It wont matter what sort of organerupting Nitrislipperyvestdefeatingterroristincapacitating hollowpoint it uses, it does me zero good if it wont go bang in that particular gun.
Second, poa/poi. All of my sd handguns have fixed sights. So, I want my ammo to hit where my sights are telling my that it should hit. At most sd distances, you wont see a huge change in ammo placement, even amongst different bullet weights or stnd, +p, or +p+. But, it is a confidence builder when you find a round that hits 'perfectly' for that gun.
Next, fast, ACCURATE follow up shots. Its a handgun. In talking w some depts who were forced to shoot an attacker, most relayed that not only did the bg not drop at the first shot, most didnt even register they'd been shot. So, more than one will need to be used. We are all different when it comes to recoil sensitivity. Some can manage it better than others. If you can shoot +p or +p+ ammo out of your selected handgun and can put multiple, very fast shots on target accurately, then do it. If you notice a lag between shots because you are battling the recoil to realign the muzzle to the target, maybe souped up rounds are'nt really helping.
Finally, availability. Its gonna take some testing to select this perfect ammo we are in search of. Just make sure you can find/purchase enough to satisfactorily test and evaluate it.

Again, this is my list.
I hope it helps.

dan
 
#3 ·
If you'll indulge me a minute more......
When evaluating your potential ammo, dont just test it in a ransom rest, or w/ a two hand perfect hold. May not tell you the whole story. Test it w a variety of grips. One hand, weak hand only, shooting in low light while utilizing a hand held light. Also, may want to do some low light shooting just to check the muzzle flash of that ammo/gun combo.
Certain ammo/gun combo's may run fine under ideal circumstances. Your sd shooting may be far from ideal. Make sure that ammo/gun runs as close to 100% under the worst conditions you can introduce into your testing/eval methods as possible.

dan
 
#4 ·
Good information. I generally take everything you said under consideration when testing SD ammo execept for shooting in less then ideal circumstances. However that makes a lot of sense so I will be adding it to my list of things to test for SD ammo. At this point I think I will be sticking with non +p ammo as I carry a fairly light pistol so any reduction in recoil for follow up shots I think is worth it.
 
#6 ·
Any firearm that the manufactor stated it was suitable for limited +P useage would cause me to use only standard ammo. I would assume that +P ammo in that firearm created accelerated wear which could result in reliability issues. Reliability ranks high in my concerns. If I wanted more power I would go with a different firearm or caliber.
 
#8 ·
My dad carried a Taurus M 85 .38 spl. snubby for backup when he was a LEO over 40 yrs. ago. Standard gun with no +P rating one way or another. He fired +P and carried with +P, never had a problem with the gun. Thousands of rounds & 30 yrs. later it became one of my guns. It was still tight & solid, if it was worn at all there was no evidence. If anyone however has any concern then I suggest practicing with the standard load and carry the +P for more reliable expansion and penetration. The circumstances are much different with auto pistols due to the mechanics of the gun, such as slide, springs, ejectors, etc. For instance, I have an older(1989) SIG 220 .45 cal. that specifically states DO NOT USE +P due to pressure tolerances.
 
#10 ·
High velocity (+p) does not necessarily equal greater penetration. Shot placement and penetration are what will put the bad guy down, and it may take several shots regardless of caliber.

Here's an example: Trooper Mark Hunter Coates, South Carolina Highway Patrol

Notice that the BG took 5 .357mag rounds to the chest - and lived!

Carry and shoot what floats your boat. Just know that +p doesn't really add much to the equation, but does lighten your wallet more than standard pressure rounds.
 
#18 ·
No where does it say he was shooting .357 mag rounds, only carrying a .357 revolver... Did the agency issue the duty ammo?

greater velocity generally equates to greater penetration...
 
#11 ·
I personally prefer standard pressure loads, because I practice with rounds that are as close to what I carry as possible. Since almost no one makes +P practice rounds that match SD rounds (and I'm not handloading +P rounds!), that means I shoot standard loads and focus on accuracy and speed, in that order.
 
#13 ·
+p is for 1 thing. To get a greater MV Since V is squared in the energy formula In a perfect world it will make a bigger impact then a standard pressure round. Whether or not you carry +p (and I do) is up to you. Keep in mind that in a SD situation you'll always want the best chance of getting out alive. If a +p round gives just a little extra somthin' then that is what I would go for.

In my carry piece +p rounds don't produce a huge difference in feel, but the chronograph doesn't lie. The +p rounds consistantly fly just over 200fps faster then non +p when compairing 230grain .45
 
#14 ·
.....and I'll go along w/ that logic, as well, Razor.
As long as the controlability (sp?) remains intact, and the firearm is rated to take it, I'd say run it.
It's all about balance.

dan

ps, hey Razor, what is the increase for that 230gr round in footpounds for a gain of 200fps? I dont have chart or a good reference right here handy.
And what is the barrel length?
 
#22 ·
4.25" barrel

Hornaday has the ballistic chart on their website.

I was testing an XTP standard pressure round (new component brass) carefully loaded to the book's recomended spec, and one a little hotter then books spec :smoke23: against a factory loaded +p hornaday XTP
I don't know what powder they use on the +p but 6 grains of bullseye powder is all I would push out of new winchester brass. 5 grain is recomended max charge.

Not really sure on energy translation but I do know that V is squared in the formula and mass is divided in half so mass doen't matter nearly as much as velocity.

On a fragmenting round higher velocity doesn't nessesarily mean greater penetration. We where talking about SD loads right?
 
#21 ·
I was looking at the J&G catalog and there are many used S&W model 10 and S&W model 64 for sale at a good price. Question are these pistols rated for +P ammo?
 
#23 ·
"We where talking about SD loads right?"-Razor

yeah, I was just trying to get a rough idea of the ft/lbs or potential energy 'gain' with the +p load. In other words, same projectile, same barrel length, dame distance to target, same impact testing media. What is the diff between the standard load, vs +p load?
I'll monkey w some sites this evening to see what I come up with.
thanks, again.

dan
 
#28 ·
Really hard to see the resulting impact making a difference without some ballistic gel or a high speed camera. I have neither. Just putting my .02c in to say that +p isn't just a marking on the box that it does do something more. Whether or not it makes a difference is debatable but the chrono didn't lie. The bullets where the same as was the brass. The only difference was the powder qty and type. If I had to carry one or the other I would choose the +p.
 
#24 ·
"Kind of rated for +P?" "Don't use it all the time, but once in a while is OK?" Well that's a new one on me. I would think that a gun is either rated for +P ammunition or it's not! I do know that I wouldn't be wrapping my little paws around a pistol that was "kind of" OK with +P ammo. Just a thought.
 
#25 ·
The question is, are the guns today(.38 spl.) manufactured of less quality (weaker) than those of the original back in the 20's or 30's? If they are NOT then shooting a +P is NO PROBLEM AT ALL to shoot in a .38 spl. revolver. Because, the original .38 spl. revolver was designed and manufactured to shoot 158gr. bullets loaded to pressures close or equivalent to the .357 magnum of today, much stronger than any +P in question. I believe that Sellier & Bellot is the only manufacturer today still loading their .38 spl. 158gr. ammo to the original pressure. IMO there is no reason to stamp a +P rating on any .38 spl. if the gun is a quality made gun equivalent to the original.
 
#26 ·
Origanal 38 spl from 20s and 30s were not stronger than todays guns. They did not shoot 158g bullets at close to or equivalant to 357 mag. In the 20s and 30s all bullets were lead, there was not such thing as a jacketed handgun bullet back then. The only 38s that were designed to shoot the 38 HV or 38 HS were built on heavier 44 frames
 
#27 ·
.38 Special +P is a tempest in a teapot. It is hugely overrated. I carry the old 158 grain +P load (so-called FBI load) because it shoots to fundamentally the same point of aim as standard velocity 158 grain ammunition and does hit a little harder. A quality revolver will handle more +P .38 Special ammunition than one can afford to buy or will enjoy shooting. I have a number of pre-WWII .38 Special revolvers and, over the years, have shot 158 grain +P in many of them. While it isn't expedient to shoot large quantities of +P in older or light weight revolvers, I would not hesitate to press such a revolver into service for personal defense using +P ammunition.
 
#34 ·
So thus the question becomes is it worth changing over from standard pressure to +P ammo for defense purposes?
If your selected choices of ammo (ABC in normal pressure, and ABC in +P pressure) result in ABC having marginal reliability for expansion and/or penetration, it's a good bet that the +P variant) will result in improved performance. To be certain, you should test it yourself in some sort of calibrated medium. Some studies have done this, but only with certain ammunition makes/models.

Whether the improvement is worth the increased battering your gun will have to deal with is the other question you'll need to answer.

For me: In a CZ P-01 with forged aluminum frame @ 28oz unloaded, I found a good standard pressure 9mm JHP round gave me ~340 ft-lbs and decent expansion and penetration. I also found the ~470 ft-lbs choice of DoubleTap JHP to be worthwhile in terms of both the improved reliability of expansion as well as penetration, at a minimal impact on accuracy and the timing of follow-up shots on-target. Worth the exchange? I thought so. YMMV.
 
#38 ·
In my opinion jacketed 158g 38 spl is not a good choice. It is hard to get more than 800 fps from a 158g jacketed bullet at the muzzel with a four inch barrel. Drop down to a two inch barrel and now the bullet is traveling slower than I trust a jacket bullet to expand at. If I shoot 158g from a 38 spl it is a lead bullet. Lead bullets are still a decent choice for 38 spl.
 
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