Energy after "Over-penetration"

Energy after "Over-penetration"

This is a discussion on Energy after "Over-penetration" within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Just wondering if anyone has done any testing to see what kind of energy/velocity/momentum rounds have after passing through a body? I have heard time ...

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Thread: Energy after "Over-penetration"

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    Distinguished Member Array AutoFan's Avatar
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    Energy after "Over-penetration"

    Just wondering if anyone has done any testing to see what kind of energy/velocity/momentum rounds have after passing through a body?

    I have heard time and again that you don't want over-penetration and hit an innocent bystander behind the BG. I can understand this on a fmj battle rifle or medium game hunting rifle round, but is this really a concern for handgun rounds?


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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoFan View Post
    Just wondering if anyone has done any testing to see what kind of energy/velocity/momentum rounds have after passing through a body?

    I have heard time and again that you don't want over-penetration and hit an innocent bystander behind the BG. I can understand this on a fmj battle rifle or medium game hunting rifle round, but is this really a concern for handgun rounds?
    Google the following: Massad Ayoob Over penetration

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    Member Array Bart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoFan View Post
    Just wondering if anyone has done any testing to see what kind of energy/velocity/momentum rounds have after passing through a body?

    I have heard time and again that you don't want over-penetration and hit an innocent bystander behind the BG. I can understand this on a fmj battle rifle or medium game hunting rifle round, but is this really a concern for handgun rounds?
    Not a concern with .45 acp.

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    Member Array ibesarcasm's Avatar
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    Sorry Bart..... tests show that a .45, because it is so heavy and slow, tends to pass though a person before fully expanding at very close range. Farther back it will be the better bullet though, however still a grave concern for ANY round.

    Op's question should be more to the "what happens to all the rounds that DON'T hit the target? Its an agument that I have with quite a few ppl on the forum. They think because they punch paper at 3-10 yards and are dead on, they will be the same in a fire fight, which anyone who has been in a firefight will tell you, its harder to hit a target that is shooting back at you & you will miss in a fire fight. Plan on it, not the otherway around.

    It's one of the things you will have to live with should you have to pull your weapon in self defense, and kinda one of the reasons for this forum......so you know ahead of time that things like this could happen.......Just hope you never have to pull it.....
    Sarcasm - Just one of the many services I provide!
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    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    fragmenting rounds prevent overpenetration.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ibesarcasm View Post
    Sorry Bart..... tests show that a .45, because it is so heavy and slow, tends to pass though a person before fully expanding at very close range. Farther back it will be the better bullet though, however still a grave concern for ANY round.

    Op's question should be more to the "what happens to all the rounds that DON'T hit the target? Its an agument that I have with quite a few ppl on the forum. They think because they punch paper at 3-10 yards and are dead on, they will be the same in a fire fight, which anyone who has been in a firefight will tell you, its harder to hit a target that is shooting back at you & you will miss in a fire fight. Plan on it, not the otherway around.

    It's one of the things you will have to live with should you have to pull your weapon in self defense, and kinda one of the reasons for this forum......so you know ahead of time that things like this could happen.......Just hope you never have to pull it.....
    Over-penetration by the .45 acp., HARDBALL by the way, is an assumption based upon the well-documented tendency towards over-penetration of the 124gr.FMJ 9mm and .38 spl. 130gr. FMJ military loads. The FACT is that 230gr. HARDBALL only rarely exits a human torso and when it does, it's generally quite spent (so heavy and slow) and can usually be found lying within a few feet of the target. tests, and verified shooting experiences, are in relation to close range statistics. Sorry ibesarcasm, I repeat.."Not a concern with .45 acp."

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    Senior Member Array rolyat63's Avatar
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    Generally misses are more worrisome because usually there are more of them.

    see HWFE produced by the FBI's Firearm Training Unit Research publication, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness. It is a very good read.

    A review of law enforcement shootings clearly suggests that regardless of the number of rounds fired in a shooting, most of the time only one or two solid torso hits on the adversary can be expected. This expectation is realistic because of the nature of shooting incidents and the extreme difficulty of shooting a handgun with precision under such dire conditions. The probability of multiple hits with a handgun is not high. Experienced officers implicitly recognize that fact, and when potential violence is reasonably anticipated, their preparations are characterized by obtaining as many shoulder weapons as possible. Since most shootings are not anticipated, the officer involved cannot be prepared in advance with heavier armament. As a corollary tactical principle, no law enforcement officer should ever plan to meet an expected attack armed only with a handgun.
    rolyat63
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    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    There was a discussion of exit velocity in one of the Marshall and Sanow books, but I'm not sure which one. Anyone got copies handy?

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    Member Array ibesarcasm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bart View Post
    Over-penetration by the .45 acp., HARDBALL by the way, is an assumption based upon the well-documented tendency towards over-penetration of the 124gr.FMJ 9mm and .38 spl. 130gr. FMJ military loads. The FACT is that 230gr. HARDBALL only rarely exits a human torso and when it does, it's generally quite spent (so heavy and slow) and can usually be found lying within a few feet of the target. tests, and verified shooting experiences, are in relation to close range statistics. Sorry ibesarcasm, I repeat.."Not a concern with .45 acp."

    So let me make sure I understand this...... a .45 ranges around 11-17inches of penitration for most carry rounds..... and this is ONLY if you hit a torso full on in the thick......say center mass, or from a side shot. Now, givin all information, such as very few rounds hit the target, LET ALONE directly in the torso, what happens to all the rounds that miss? Or are hits on soft targets.....say neck, or arm, or leg, or spleen/liver area...... you sure you still want to stand behind the comment of "not a concern with a .45?" Remember, OPs question was "Over-penetration." You can honestly state on here that a .45 will not over-penetrate a shoulder, or arm, or neck? Wait....what about someone who only weighs about 130-150 pounds? Still think 14 inches of penetration will plink out the far side and fall to the ground?
    Sorry, your making a generalized statement based on shots into a piece of gelatin....maybe with some clothes over it for effect. My suggestion would be based on real world shootings......6-10 shots, two hits in the torso, rest misses. Most statisics will rate a non-critical hit (arm, leg, sholder) as a miss. So based on a big, slow .45 that does not tend to make full expasion in soft tissue, gotta go with the documentation..... It's been on here quite a few times if you search for it.......

    I do buy a lot of things......but the statement of "not a concern with a .45" is kinda hard to swallow....... just MO though.......
    Sarcasm - Just one of the many services I provide!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibesarcasm View Post
    So let me make sure I understand this...... a .45 ranges around 11-17inches of penitration for most carry rounds..... and this is ONLY if you hit a torso full on in the thick......say center mass, or from a side shot. Now, givin all information, such as very few rounds hit the target, LET ALONE directly in the torso, what happens to all the rounds that miss? Or are hits on soft targets.....say neck, or arm, or leg, or spleen/liver area...... you sure you still want to stand behind the comment of "not a concern with a .45?" Remember, OPs question was "Over-penetration." You can honestly state on here that a .45 will not over-penetrate a shoulder, or arm, or neck? Wait....what about someone who only weighs about 130-150 pounds? Still think 14 inches of penetration will plink out the far side and fall to the ground?
    Sorry, your making a generalized statement based on shots into a piece of gelatin....maybe with some clothes over it for effect. My suggestion would be based on real world shootings......6-10 shots, two hits in the torso, rest misses. Most statisics will rate a non-critical hit (arm, leg, sholder) as a miss. So based on a big, slow .45 that does not tend to make full expasion in soft tissue, gotta go with the documentation..... It's been on here quite a few times if you search for it.......

    I do buy a lot of things......but the statement of "not a concern with a .45" is kinda hard to swallow....... just MO though.......
    It was my error to say "tests", sorry. All statistics were acquired from actual shootings.

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    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    Over penetration is one of the many reasons I carry a 380 P3AT as my EDC with HP ammo.

    If it makes it through it should not have much energy left.

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    I think the problem here.....and why we are having the back and forth, is that everyone is talking apples and oranges.

    I'll say with all my belief that a dead center hit, through chestbone, heart, and spine, by ANY handgun round (save a .480 or something silly someone will through out) will not over penetrate and I would have NO concern with it passing through, or have no energy if it did. from .22 cal to .45 cal.
    But to be back on track, the question was about over-penetration, which to ME means any time a bullet passes THROUGH ANY PART of the human anatomy. It has OVER-PENETRATED its target (the thing you are shooting at) and moved into the space behind the target.
    Now, unless someone is carrying a .22LR or maybe magnum even, I would begin to wonder about where the round would go after soft tissue. The argument of the smaller round versus the bigger round is mute..... MO.
    Rounds are designed to penetrate, the larger the grain, the better the penetration. Smaller rounds have to make up the grain diff. by going faster to get the expansion required. Next is temp. cavity, which is mostly related to wound effectiveness, the larger the temp. cavity, the better the stopping power. But we're not talking about that.
    My father in law was shot with a .38 out of a snub nose from about 10 feet, it entered the shoulder and exited the back of his arm.....a good 8-9" of muscle, no bone, but it did just that.....passed right through and lodged in the floor. Now if a .38 special will pass through 8-9 inches of muscle and STILL lodge in the floor, I'm gonna have to follow the path of it being a concern.
    I'm looking for a report that shows someone shooting 7-14" inches of gelatin and checking the energy on the back side, but have not found anything yet. Only shooting of 40" of gel to check wound cavity, path, and penetration.

    And I know somebody wants to ask....... and no, over pen. will not stop me from protecting myself. I'm not sure my reactions would even let me stop to contemplate what is behind my target. If its attacking me, I'm gonna have to shoot it.
    Sarcasm - Just one of the many services I provide!
    Ever wonder why massacres never happen at a gun range??
    You might find me dead in a ditch one day, but I'll be in a pile of brass. - Stolen from Zebra64

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    Member Array Bart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibesarcasm View Post
    I think the problem here.....and why we are having the back and forth, is that everyone is talking apples and oranges.

    I'll say with all my belief that a dead center hit, through chestbone, heart, and spine, by ANY handgun round (save a .480 or something silly someone will through out) will not over penetrate and I would have NO concern with it passing through, or have no energy if it did. from .22 cal to .45 cal.
    But to be back on track, the question was about over-penetration, which to ME means any time a bullet passes THROUGH ANY PART of the human anatomy. It has OVER-PENETRATED its target (the thing you are shooting at) and moved into the space behind the target.
    Now, unless someone is carrying a .22LR or maybe magnum even, I would begin to wonder about where the round would go after soft tissue. The argument of the smaller round versus the bigger round is mute..... MO.
    Rounds are designed to penetrate, the larger the grain, the better the penetration. Smaller rounds have to make up the grain diff. by going faster to get the expansion required. Next is temp. cavity, which is mostly related to wound effectiveness, the larger the temp. cavity, the better the stopping power. But we're not talking about that.
    My father in law was shot with a .38 out of a snub nose from about 10 feet, it entered the shoulder and exited the back of his arm.....a good 8-9" of muscle, no bone, but it did just that.....passed right through and lodged in the floor. Now if a .38 special will pass through 8-9 inches of muscle and STILL lodge in the floor, I'm gonna have to follow the path of it being a concern.
    I'm looking for a report that shows someone shooting 7-14" inches of gelatin and checking the energy on the back side, but have not found anything yet. Only shooting of 40" of gel to check wound cavity, path, and penetration.

    And I know somebody wants to ask....... and no, over pen. will not stop me from protecting myself. I'm not sure my reactions would even let me stop to contemplate what is behind my target. If its attacking me, I'm gonna have to shoot it.
    Can't disagree with that.

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    Senior Member Array digitalexplr's Avatar
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    Can anyone produce cases where overpenetration caused innocent injuries? Rounds that miss their target are MUCH more of a hazard than overpenetration.

    The human body is not made of paper or plastic. It takes a lot of energy for an object to pass all the way through and have enough energy left to cause further injury on the other side.
    NRA Life Member

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    Member Array ibesarcasm's Avatar
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    I have been looking for some sort of tests that are more worldly accurate in terms of what might actually occur in a shooting. And I have read some information about rounds that have missed thier intended victim, but only in police shootings. Most police departments have detirmined this to be negligible if and when a round strikes an un-intended target. They have deemed it not worthy of discussion, or "not likely." But then, LEOs have a little more protection from criminal charges than the average Joe on the street, and also have the umbrella of civil protection, because the person wants to sue the agency the person works for.....not the person. Less money to be had. But if the average person had to shoot in self defense, and (god forbid) an innocent was struck by ANY means, then that person COULD (I said could) possibly face charges of assault or neg. homicide.......let alone the possibility of civil charges.....
    I know lots of people on here think I tend to stir up the pot.....over penetration, frangible rounds, NOT discussing how much your round would destroy human flesh & bone, silly shirts and logos ppl post...... but it really is only to make people "think outside the box." Chances of one of us really being in a shoot out with and armed assailant (minus LEOs) is prolly very, very, low. (maybe I'll do a poll on shootouts?) Yet we still carry our weapons..."just in case." So I would have to say that to not be prepared for situations such as... I missed, or I hit, or I shot 10 rounds hit the target AND a innocent... or what ever, would be pretty silly and would tend make me believe that we are NOT as prepared for SD as we should be. Nothing can ever prepare us for everything, but to just dis-reguard it cause "it would never be an issue for me", makes me wonder why someone would even carry a weapon? If you can ward off the bad of the aftermath, just ward off the bad of the whole situation. Presto....perfect society.
    And please this is NOT directed at anyone..... but I have seen some posts and had some contacts with persons on here who seem to think just that........
    I never miss, I always will hit center mass, nobody will use posts from here against me in a civil or criminal trial, my bumper stick of "keep honking, I'm reloading" won't mean anything to a jury....... these are things we MUST think about........
    Ok, rant off....... LOL
    And yea Dig, I'm still hunting for mor info on both miss and over pen. I'll give a post if I find anything segnificant........
    Sarcasm - Just one of the many services I provide!
    Ever wonder why massacres never happen at a gun range??
    You might find me dead in a ditch one day, but I'll be in a pile of brass. - Stolen from Zebra64

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