Knock Down Observations

Knock Down Observations

This is a discussion on Knock Down Observations within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So I was at the bowling pin range this week and fired some of my self defence pistols. Nothing like watching things fly off a ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array cmb's Avatar
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    Knock Down Observations

    So I was at the bowling pin range this week and fired some of my self defence pistols. Nothing like watching things fly off a table!

    Notice some interesting things:

    With P32, hits well but if you hit the pin in the fat section it will only wiggle it takes the second shot to knock it down.

    With PF9 one shot knocks them down

    With 45 one shot knocks them off the table

    With 357 Mag one shot knocks it off the table further with more uumph

    not sure what all this means, I know I wouldn't want to be hit with any of the above and if I had my choice to use any against someone else, I would choose the last two... at least from the pin perspective!

    Just thought I'd share...


  2. #2
    Member Array rstrainii's Avatar
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    I am with you on that one. I like the 45, I always hear about knock down power but I dont think that knock down power refers to knocking a person off thier feet. How I see it is the shock to the system and wound cavity. IMHO I think the larger the caliber the more Trauma and instead of knock down power I think of stopping power. But then again a well placed shot from anything can stop the threat.

  3. #3
    Member Array RmScadd's Avatar
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    Nice info, thanks
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    Member Array Jim Macklin's Avatar
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    F=MxA

    E=1/2MxV^2

    E=MC^2 OK that isn't useful with guns, yet. It does mean that Kirk will never be able to tell Scotty to beam him up. The energy required to tum energy into matter for one human is about 1500 H bombs worth.

    Momentum=MxV

    Big bullets transfer more momentum to bowling pins. Fast bullets in liquids [humans are 80+% liquid] cause hydrostatic shock when the pressure wave is supersonic.

    Horse power added a time factor.. so a .223 bullet that is stopped with 2" of penetration releases more HP than the same bullet that does 16" but the effect of that energy depends on what it does to nerves and tissue. If a vest stops a bullet and it doesn't cut nerves and vessels, it may just be a punch and a shock, with no lasting effect. If a bullet cuts the right [wrong] vessel you may not notice much at all until you die in 10 minutes with your lungs full of all your blood. And if that person was trying to kill you, they will.
    So bigger bullets that stop the action with both lots of tissue damage, lots of energy transfer are what is needed for self-defense. For murder, a 1/2" utility knife or a .22 CB cap will do.
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  5. #5
    kpw
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    That's a good example of expended energy. My '06 would do a number on a bowling pin but it hasn't knocked a deer over yet. Kills them pretty dead though!
    "In a republic this rule ought to be observed: that the majority should not have the predominant power." -
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    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    With 45 one shot knocks them off the table

    With 357 Mag one shot knocks it off the table further with more uumph
    In a non-scientific way that correlates with the posted street results of the two calibers.

    The .45 ACP is known as a good "manstopper" when using hollowpoint ammo, and will get the job done with hardball if that's all you have. The .357 Magnum, with 125 Grain JHP's or SJHP's has been known as "The King of the Street" for years and no round has bested it from what I've read.

    John Farnam said, "The only reason people put up with the recoil and muzzle blast of the .357 Magnum is because of it's awesome stopping power." It is what I consider the almost perfect round, but like any round, has had it's failures too.

    Any handgun round can stop or kill. Some just do it better than others.

    Biker

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    Distinguished Member Array TerriLi's Avatar
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    Now Im curious, if a .45 and .357 both knock the pins off the table, what would .454 or a .500 do to the pin?
    I know not what this "overkill" means.

    Honing the knives, Cleaning the longguns, Stocking up ammo.

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    Senior Member Array boscobeans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerriLi View Post
    Now Im curious, if a .45 and .357 both knock the pins off the table, what would .454 or a .500 do to the pin?
    Maybe plastic coated toothpicks ???

    bosco

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    Senior Member Array cmb's Avatar
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    me too!

    Quote Originally Posted by TerriLi View Post
    Now Im curious, if a .45 and .357 both knock the pins off the table, what would .454 or a .500 do to the pin?
    I wish I had one to test!

    45LC from a judge does a good job of putting them down, those pins are pretty durable. I would love to 454 Casull them and see hwat happens...

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    And that's kinda the reason I bought a .45 auto instead of a 9mm. [That comes later! ;-) ]
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    Senior Member Array rolyat63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstrainii View Post
    I am with you on that one. I like the 45, I always hear about knock down power but I dont think that knock down power refers to knocking a person off thier feet. How I see it is the shock to the system and wound cavity. IMHO I think the larger the caliber the more Trauma and instead of knock down power I think of stopping power. But then again a well placed shot from anything can stop the threat.
    Yeah the hollywood knock down scenes are not what really happens. Its a physics thing. The engery to launch a projectile fast enough to create the necessary momentum to physically knockdown an average human would by defintion knock down the shooter as well.
    rolyat63
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    VIP Member Array hogdaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpw View Post
    That's a good example of expended energy. My '06 would do a number on a bowling pin but it hasn't knocked a deer over yet. Kills them pretty dead though!
    NECK SHOT my friend will knock em down

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    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerriLi View Post
    Now Im curious, if a .45 and .357 both knock the pins off the table, what would .454 or a .500 do to the pin?

    A 440gr, hardcast .500 S&W round will throw a bowling pin about 20 feet.

    The pin stays together fairly well, if it's new; a shot up pin--particularly if cold (think shooting in MN in January) will be blown to flinders.

    BTW--the same round will also fully penetrate a 6' diameter round haybale and land, very nicely, on the ground about 3' beyond the bale...(not after a bowling pin, however).
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  14. #14
    Distinguished Member Array TerriLi's Avatar
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    Thanks Cuda. Curiosity is a beautiful thing.
    I know not what this "overkill" means.

    Honing the knives, Cleaning the longguns, Stocking up ammo.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array ntkb's Avatar
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    I drop deer in thier tracks with 223 70gr sp 9 out of 10 times they drop like a sack of potatos when placed in the neck, tracking blood trails is for bow hunters.

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