Dutch loaded magazines

This is a discussion on Dutch loaded magazines within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've read the merged thread regarding mixing FMJ and JHP rounds but it didn't cover my particular question. As a rule I carry (in my ...

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Thread: Dutch loaded magazines

  1. #1
    Member Array Handgunner's Avatar
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    Dutch loaded magazines

    I've read the merged thread regarding mixing FMJ and JHP rounds but it didn't cover my particular question. As a rule I carry (in my defensive mags) a mix of alternating standard loads and +P loads (both JHP). The theory behind this is that +P rounds have greater muzzle velocity, thus greater penetration. All my pistols are good makes, but none advocate the use of +P ammo, at least on a regular basis. My question is, would fellow forum members recommend my use of carry or advise the use of all standard rounds as +P isn't going to make much more of a difference in stopping a threat.

    On a related note, I was suprised to read that some members pack a % of FMJs into their magazines due to their ballistic characteristics. Does anyone know of the legal implications of over-penetration if these rounds were used in a defensive situation? It was once the opinion of the masses (including the courts) that JHPs were "tools of the devil" due to their greater wound channeling, etc.

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    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handgunner View Post
    I've read the merged thread regarding mixing FMJ and JHP rounds but it didn't cover my particular question. As a rule I carry (in my defensive mags) a mix of alternating standard loads and +P loads (both JHP). The theory behind this is that +P rounds have greater muzzle velocity, thus greater penetration. All my pistols are good makes, but none advocate the use of +P ammo, at least on a regular basis. My question is, would fellow forum members recommend my use of carry or advise the use of all standard rounds as +P isn't going to make much more of a difference in stopping a threat.

    On a related note, I was surprised to read that some members pack a % of FMJs into their magazines due to their ballistic characteristics. Does anyone know of the legal implications of over-penetration if these rounds were used in a defensive situation? It was once the opinion of the masses (including the courts) that JHPs were "tools of the devil" due to their greater wound channeling, etc.
    You know....maybe this is worth looking into. I've never thought about it so much as for being here on the forum. I would think there would be minimal implications with FMJ rounds compared to HPs simply due to the fact our military is required to use FMJ and the Geneva convention requires it. I must say I do put more faith in the tried and true as opposed to scientific studies and what should or shouldn't be. Call it a draw and spend less on PD ammo. I continue to carry HPs in my EDC. Maybe I'm following along with the old fashioned ways of thinking. Then again...my basic thinking is survival, and not much gets in the way of that.

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    Distinguished Member Array TerriLi's Avatar
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    Also think about some states limit everyday joes to limited ammo types. If I remember correctly NYC limits carriers that are nonleo to FMJs only. So local laws are a factor too.
    I know not what this "overkill" means.

    Honing the knives, Cleaning the longguns, Stocking up ammo.

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    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    I do NOT mix ammo in any magazine in any caliber.

    I want EVERY round to perform just like the one before it - same recoil, same point of aim, same effect on the target.

    I don't want to even think about what the next round is; I want to KNOW - and the only way to do that is to load one kind of ammo in any given magazine.

    If I need something different, I'll carry a magazine with that load (only) in it.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

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    VIP Member Array rottkeeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    I do NOT mix ammo in any magazine in any caliber.

    I want EVERY round to perform just like the one before it - same recoil, same point of aim, same effect on the target.

    I don't want to even think about what the next round is; I want to KNOW - and the only way to do that is to load one kind of ammo in any given magazine.

    If I need something different, I'll carry a magazine with that load (only) in it.
    For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Mathew 24:27

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    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handgunner View Post
    my pistols are good makes, but none advocate the use of +P ammo, at least on a regular basis.
    There is no need to alternate normal and +P to prevent wear on the firearm. Follow what it says in your manual, but you ought to be just fine carrying only +P and practicing with it occasionally.


    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk
    I want EVERY round to perform just like the one before it - same recoil, same point of aim, same effect on the target.
    There is very little difference in recoil and bullet drop for ammo shot out of handguns at typical fighting differences.

    Hunting bullets are designed to expand when they meet flesh. That is what I carry expanding hollow points in my pistol.

    Mixing and matching ammo might confuse crime scene techs a little, but I don't see any serious issues. It does make sense, however, to find a reliable, effective, inexpensive ammo to get the job done and carry only that.
    "a reminder that no law can replace personal responsibility" - Bill Clinton 2010.

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    I don't mix loads in a single mag, but I do often carry a spare mag that's loaded with FMJ rounds, especially in .45 and .380.
    "Texas can make it without the United States, but the United States can't make it without Texas!".... Sam Houston

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    The problem with over penetration,would be either property damage,which you would be liable for,or personal injury,you over penetrate and kill or wound an innocent bystander even tho justified in the use of deadly force and you will be looking at involuntary manslaughter charges,or being sued for injury and pain and suffering.I like to know what type of round I'm dropping the hammer on,If I need more penetration due to winter time and everybody wearing heavy coats,I may load FMJ instead of hollowpoints.My HD Shotgun is loaded with 00 buck with slugs in the saddle,One problem with slugs is many years ago I shot an old abandioned farmhouse with a slug,the slug went all the way thru the house,2 exterior and 2 interior walls and snapped a 2" tree in half after leaving the house
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    I do NOT mix ammo in any magazine in any caliber.

    I want EVERY round to perform just like the one before it - same recoil, same point of aim, same effect on the target.

    I don't want to even think about what the next round is; I want to KNOW - and the only way to do that is to load one kind of ammo in any given magazine.

    If I need something different, I'll carry a magazine with that load (only) in it.
    Only this.
    Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -C. S. Lewis

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    Senior Member Array jeephipwr's Avatar
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    In a military application, if FMJ passes thru a target, the only other potential target is another soldier (in most situations). In a civilian world, FMJ passing thru a target is a BAD thing. You can hit other civilians including family. Me personally, I want a bullet that will expend most or all of its energy on the target with minimal pass-thru

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    I think a chunk of .45 slug in any for would convince a BG to go elsewhere!

    I have 2 HPs, 1 FMJ throughout my SD mag. I don't worry about change of impact point as I'm not taking on a BG at 50+ yards unless he starts it. That far away, I'm not sure I'm threatened. I'm more concerned about piercing my windshield or anything else that might deflect a HP round.
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    I'm in this camp on this one

    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    I do NOT mix ammo in any magazine in any caliber.

    I want EVERY round to perform just like the one before it - same recoil, same point of aim, same effect on the target.

    I don't want to even think about what the next round is; I want to KNOW - and the only way to do that is to load one kind of ammo in any given magazine.

    If I need something different, I'll carry a magazine with that load (only) in it.
    ^^^^^^^^^YEP^^^^^^^



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    Senior Member Array paul45's Avatar
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    I want consistency from shot to shot. Bullet placement is key in my personal defense plan. Not too many barriers that I may have to shoot thru while getting out of Dodge! Center mass and the T, if that fails, the the groin. By then I hope to have put some distance between me and the target. I want consistency to hit my target - I prefer JHP +Ps but anything will do it a pinch.
    "Being PARANOID is just plain smart thinking when they are really out to get you!"

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    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nutz4utwo View Post
    There is very little difference in recoil and bullet drop for ammo shot out of handguns at typical fighting differences.
    The shooting distance has absolutely no effect upon recoil, but bullet weight can, and often does. BTW, bullet drop and point-of-aim change are not the same thing.

    And I didn't say anything about bullet drop; I said bullet performance.
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    It was once the opinion of the masses (including the courts) that JHPs were "tools of the devil" due to their greater wound channeling, etc.
    The "masses" for the most part are pretty clueless about details.

    The JHP wont have the penetration factor that the FMJ's have. Chances are very high that if you have to shoot in self defense, there will be other people around. Shooting a bad-guy with a FMJ wont be much help to you if it goes through him, across the street, through a window and into some bystander that is going to sue you now.

    I don't recommend alternating bullets. If you want FMJ, load them in a separate magazine.

    I do have FMJ at my disposal when carrying as a Deputy Marshal. I keep 230 grain Gold Dots in my Glock 21, another mag of same in the magazine holder and one loaded with FMJ beside that. Since we have had several shootings at vehicles in the last few years, we decided that having some FMJ would be to our advantage as JHP dont do as well on vehicles. Of course in a ideal situation we'd be out with rifles or shotguns, but time dosent always allow that.

    As a citizen in a self defense shooting, you probably wont be shooting at vehicles. The only situation I could see carrying FMJ is in a full fledged shootout where you are shooting into cover and in reality that happens very little, the chances of that happening are astronomical.


    My question is, would fellow forum members recommend my use of carry or advise the use of all standard rounds as +P isn't going to make much more of a difference in stopping a threat
    +P rounds used to be of more value back in the days when bullet construction wasnt so great. With advances in modern technology, I personally dont see that much of an advantage to +P ammo. Its definatley harder on the guns if they are used alot, they tend to exhibit more flash, more recoil, they are louder and in a small gun it makes them harder to handle.

    We have come far enough in the last 20 years that most "standard" personal defense ammo does the job quite well. Having dealt with several murders and shootings, most of the ammo being run of the mill stuff bought at the local Walmart, I can testify that all of it does the job quite well when properly placed. Even the ones that havent killed have done quite a good job of maiming and tearing things up.
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