Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue - Page 2

Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue

This is a discussion on Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've had my G26 beside the bed at night lately, rather than the G36, but I think I'll add the Mossberg 500 with the G36 ...

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Thread: Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue

  1. #16
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    I've had my G26 beside the bed at night lately, rather than the G36, but I think I'll add the Mossberg 500 with the G36 before I go to sleep tonight. He does like shotguns, does he not?

    Nice post, Ex!


    The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins. ― The Journals of Kierkegaard


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Wink +1 for Fort Lewis!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mic View Post
    I've traind myself to dubble tap every time I shoot and center mass 2 .40 Federal HST's in the chest will do the trick
    WELCOME! I was stationed at Lewis in the early 1980s with the 9th ID, then. Did my time in a line infantry battalion as a platoon leader then jumped up to Division Staff. We had a saying about humping a rucksack in the Rainier Training Area: "Travel light, FREEZE at night." Is it still that way? Sky clear as a bell without any clouds and temps about 70 degrees; then five hours later the temps drop 30 degrees and it pours?

    In between my time on the line and on the staff I did a stint on the Division Pistol team as the XO.

    You want to be real careful about engaging multiple targets with the fabled "Double Tap" which is really a term from Hollywood & can be broken down into two real categories: The HAMMER and the CONTROLLED PAIR. The former is so fast it almost sounds as one shot and the other is much slower and is usually a pair of aimed shots. The problem with either is that when you are engaging multiples you might be putting shot #2 into target #2 and give target numbers 3 or 4 ample time to put one or more into YOU.

    Think of it like being a good host: EVERYBODY GET'S "FIRSTS" BEFORE ANYBODY GET'S "SECONDS." Put one round into every target before you put any into one twice or more.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I thought I was gonna die of old age before I finished reading your post
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  4. #19
    Member Array Tros's Avatar
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    Well, that was certainly an interesting read. I don't really want to credit or discredit a person who posts online (simply because I don't know them from the next person) but it certainly was a unique perspective on things.

    After reading everything, I came away with the same impression I did before. Quite simply, I am still a fan of "heavy" bullets in any given caliber; I still think the FMJ is much more lethal than people give it credit for; and finally, shot placement, and penetration is paramount.
    Beretta 92FS

  5. #20
    Member Array cocojo's Avatar
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    Interesting read, but too long. The problem with this evaluation made by the person who works in the morgue is all these people are already dead. He was not on the street to see the results of the shot to the body and the reaction of the person shot by any of these calibers. Just because some were shot once, twice or three times is an unknown. Who knows why the person shot them more than once.
    I can tell you whether I carry a 45 or 22 I would not shoot once. Many forensic doctors will tell you they can't tell one bullet hole from another ( Martin Fackler and others have done this study in the mid eighties). Do I think that the 45 is better than a 380, of course it is. No one here would despute this statement and we don't have to look at the body to know this. More power, bigger hole, more weight.
    The key is to, stop the aggression if it takes ten bullets from a 380 you have with you, then so be it. Better than the 45 that was too big to carry and you left at home. That 9mm or 380 or 32 sure is a comfort over nothing with you. Obvisously when you carry a smaller caliber you should know it's limitations and you should know to get out of the kill zone anyway. Handguns are defensive tools, a shotgun or rifle can be use offensively or defensively. The only quam I have is with the 9mm statements. A good 147 or 127 hp is a good round and not as bad as the statements made. I have been to enough ballistic seminars to see results of the 9mm v 40 v 45 to know that with a well placed shot and a good HP, they are all very close. All the calibers he mentioned that he witnessed in these bodys, have all been dead ones. Whatever caliber or round they used put these people in the morgue.

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    I thought I was gonna die of old age before I finished reading your post
    Typical of many of these forums it turns into a p***ing match. The original poster apparently from the S&W forum summed it up in the end with
    If my statements of, "Occasionally, I've seen the 9mm fragment or fail to reach the vital organs, whereas I don't think I can remember seeing a .45 do so" aren't sufficient, I'm afraid you're on your own.
    So the sum total of what he says as I understood it. Is that with proper shot placement most often a 9mm & .380 will do their job but not always. While with proper shot placement a .45 or .40 will always do the job.
    I for one would like to ask him if he has ever seen any 230gr. HST in his morgue and what it looked like
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  7. #22
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    You may remember the Pastor that y'all gathered up funds for to buy him a carry pistol. It was no mistake that I chose a Model 66 .357 magnum with the Crimson Trace grips for him. I was about to start his training when my wife's breast cancer was first diagnosed. Now we are midway through her initial regimen of chemotherapy and things are stabilizing with the help of HIS Church which we have recently joined. We'll be undertaking HIS training with this weapon very soon. I'll pass the pix I take along to the board when we finally hit the range.
    I do remember the pastor.

    You selected an excellent weapon, IMHO. I will keep your wife in my thoughts. Best to you and your's.

    Biker

  8. #23
    Member Array Bricktop's Avatar
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    The important thing is shot placement and how many chances will you have to shoot the bad guy. Home defense 12 gage buckshot. Carry 5 inch 1911!
    VERITAS AEQUITAS

  9. #24
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    Very interesting morgue information, I read it all. I carry a S&W .45, after my department switched from .357 revolvers years ago. Since I retired they switched again to Glock .40's. I still carry my CS45 with a PPK/S backup.

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Good information.

    After reading all of it and enjoying it for the insight and knowledge from the perspective of someone so close to the end result. I still feel that the heavier 147gr 9mm will be sufficient in a defense role. The test I've seen shows on average 2" to 2 1/2" deeper penetration over the lighter 124 +p loads. My conclusion is the heavier bullet should punch on through the bone as well. I hate to think of it in such a gruesome manner, but SD dictates prudence when selecting your defense tools and ammo is as high on the list as the weapon itself IMO.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    I admit that I did not read the whole post. However, everything else I have read or been told by Drs, and those who do the medical examinations at the morgue and elsewhere, is that they cannot tell the difference in 9MM, 40, or .45 from the tissue damage.
    So I continue to carry whatever is convenient at the time be it a .380. 9MM, .38 Spl, .357 Mag or .45.

    Regards,
    Jerry

  12. #27
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    Wink Yeah....BUT

    Quote Originally Posted by cocojo View Post
    Obvisously when you carry a smaller caliber you should know it's limitations and you should know to get out of the kill zone anyway. Handguns are defensive tools, a shotgun or rifle can be use offensively or defensively. The only quam I have is with the 9mm statements. A good 147 or 127 hp is a good round and not as bad as the statements made. I have been to enough ballistic seminars to see results of the 9mm v 40 v 45 to know that with a well placed shot and a good HP, they are all very close. All the calibers he mentioned that he witnessed in these bodys, have all been dead ones. Whatever caliber or round they used put these people in the morgue.
    I have no idea how old this article is and it appears to have been bouncing around the various forums for quite awhile.

    I know that technology finally caught up with the industry and actual bullet configurations put the 9mm and the 45acp very close together on expansion. The difference has to be (and it seems to be this point from the OP in the article): Bullet WEIGHT. The best you're going to get from a 9mm is going to be 147gr and that means a subsonic round from the factory. In a shorter barrel that may not insure adequate expansion given the velocity. Most folks seem to favor the 115+P+ or the 124gr +P to give the necessary performance.

    Still the concern seems to be in the terminal penetration of these lighter bullets especially with the similar expansion characteristics. +P+ is great but the round will slow dramatically once there is impact as it expands it may also lose weight by sloughing off layers of lead which could be in the petals of the expanding flower shape some loads exhibit. A heavier bullet like a 185gr or a 230gr 45acp is going to be less affected by this and may still penetrate the vitals to the needed depths.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    That article has gone 'round and 'round for awhile. While interesting, I'm not sure you can draw too many conclusions from it.

    We shoot to stop a threat, not necessarily to kill. So, if you shoot an attacker with a .45, but he kills you before expiring himself - is this a good result? If you shoot an attacker 4 times with a 9mm, and he immediately stops his attack - is this a bad thing? The article would seem to suggest so.

    Most of the dead the author saw were BG shoots BG (sniff sniff). Could be BG's use .380's and 9mm's for the same reason we CCWers do? They're smaller and easier to carry concealed?

    The fact that most BG's don't make it to the range too often, and rely on "spray and pray" tactics can explain the large number of hits with .380 and 9mm. If the local LEOs used .45, it could explain why fewer shots were needed - better training, and better shot placement.

    As far as penetration goes - gel tests show very similar results with 9mm, .40 and .45. Yes, gel is not bone. However, there are many anecdotal reports of bullets failing to penetrate bone - even the vaunted .45. There are just too many variables. Weight and velocity are important, but so is cross-sectional density - a .45 is heavier but spreads its momentum across a larger surface area, which can negatively impact penetration.

    Round and round the caliber wars go. I gave up on them. Fire the caliber you can control well, and can get rapid multiple hits with. Balance caliber with concealment, and ammo capacity. Factor in the cost of practice ammo, because skill will win out over all else.

    The .45 advocates can find solace that the IWBA calculated that it has a 4-7% per shot greater chance of hitting something vital that a 9mm might just barely miss, like the spine or a major artery. The 9mm advocates can find comfort in the fact that this small trade-off allows them to carry many more rounds in a pistol of a given size, have less recoil, faster follow-up shots, and more practice rounds per dollar. The .40 supporters just split the difference and call it a day...

    Me? I think 9mm is just fine - and .380 is OK too with the right ammo (FMJ).

    Just remember that, within reason, it is the skill of the operator that usually wins the day.

    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  14. #29
    Distinguished Member Array Rugergirl's Avatar
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    10th, great post!
    After shot placement comes penetration and expansion, but most important is the caliber you feel comfortable shooting, and each to his own.
    For me the favorite flavor has been and will always be the .357 Magnum round in hollow-point of course.
    Carry the caliber of your choice, if you shoot it well, it will give you confidence, a very important part of self-defense.
    When SHTF that confidence may very well be the difference for you going home at the end of the day.
    Disclaimer: The posts made by this member are only the members opinion, not a reflection on anyone else, nor the group, and should not be cause for anyone to get their undergarments wedged in an uncomfortable position.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    these lighter bullets especially with the similar expansion characteristics. +P+ is great but the round will slow dramatically once there is impact as it expands it may also lose weight by sloughing off layers of lead which could be in the petals of the expanding flower shape some loads exhibit. A heavier bullet like a 185gr or a 230gr 45acp is going to be less affected by this and may still penetrate the vitals to the needed depths.
    Also the point he made several times that the smaller bullets are deflected by bone, while that may also happen in theory with a 230 grain .45 In the real life experience of this one observer of thousands of gun shot deaths. He NEVER saw a bone deflect a 230 grain bullet or saw any internal obstacle prevent a 230 grain bullet from reaching its intended destination. While it seemed not uncommon for lighter bullets to be blocked from reaching their goal.
    Point for me is that when protecting my baby do I want to use what is effective most of the time or what is ALWAYS effective.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

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