Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue

This is a discussion on Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Can you explain the contradiction here? As for me, I'll take a slow-moving .45 to a gun fight any day. I absolutely despise a 9mm ...

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Thread: Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue

  1. #31
    Ex Member Array G19inLV's Avatar
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    Can you explain the contradiction here?

    As for me, I'll take a slow-moving .45 to a gun fight any day. I absolutely despise a 9mm for defensive situations (yes, they will eventually kill but often not quickly enough to prevent the BG from doing you in first)and a .380 as well. These are probably the two calibers I see most often on the autopsy table.

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G19inLV View Post
    Can you explain the contradiction here?

    As for me, I'll take a slow-moving .45 to a gun fight any day. I absolutely despise a 9mm for defensive situations (yes, they will eventually kill but often not quickly enough to prevent the BG from doing you in first)and a .380 as well. These are probably the two calibers I see most often on the autopsy table.
    I see no contradiction. He states a personal preference for the .45 over the 9mm. He opines that the 9mm doesn't end the fight quickly enough to prevent the opponent from shooting back. He observes that the two most common calibers he sees on the table are 9mm and .380.
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  4. #33
    Distinguished Member Array Rugergirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom357 View Post
    I see no contradiction. He states a personal preference for the .45 over the 9mm. He opines that the 9mm doesn't end the fight quickly enough to prevent the opponent from shooting back. He observes that the two most common calibers he sees on the table are 9mm and .380.
    Yep, I don't think the author is creating his own patients on the table.
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  5. #34
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G19inLV View Post
    Can you explain the contradiction here?

    As for me, I'll take a slow-moving .45 to a gun fight any day. I absolutely despise a 9mm for defensive situations (yes, they will eventually kill but often not quickly enough to prevent the BG from doing you in first)and a .380 as well. These are probably the two calibers I see most often on the autopsy table.
    I believe the question, or perhaps the suggestion to consider is; is the original author not seeing as many 45 caliber victums in the morgue because the 45 is not as deadly?

    I am not saying this is the case, just saying a good statistician could make an argument that that's why there are not as many 45 victums in the morgue, they all get to go to the hospital.

    Just proves the expression, Figures don't lie, but liar's do figure. Anyone can draw any conclusion from any data set, given enough time, paper and alcohol!

    As for me, personally I think the OP makes a good case for the 45 caliber. Does that mean I am going out and buy one? Not at this time. Maybe some day but I feel confident enough in my EDC verses potential threat at this point.

  6. #35
    Member Array BurgDog's Avatar
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    Most of the people he sees in the morgue are BGs shot by BGs and they usually use 9mm or .380s as carry weapons. Most BGs are killed by other BGs, not the GGs who might use more expensive/bigger guns so he doesn't see a lot of larger calibers.

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G19inLV View Post
    Can you explain the contradiction here?

    As for me, I'll take a slow-moving .45 to a gun fight any day. I absolutely despise a 9mm for defensive situations (yes, they will eventually kill but often not quickly enough to prevent the BG from doing you in first)and a .380 as well. These are probably the two calibers I see most often on the autopsy table.
    No contradiction if read in its entirety. What he says is that a well placed shot from a .380 & 9mm often do not make it to any vital areas because they tend to deflect off of bone or lose their energy before they hit vital tissue. While he has never ever seen that happen with a .45.

    The point being as I read it is that a properly place shot with a 9mm or .380 might not hit any vital organs and so may not stop an assault. While a well placed shot with a .45 will ALWAY hit a vital organ

    As others have said the reason he says that he sees more 9mm and .380 on his table is because that is what BG most often use.

    He honestly and accurately have said that;
    Out of a random sample of 100 gun shot fatalities caused by 9mm or .380 some of them had wounds that showed the bullets deflected off of bone or lost their energy before hitting vital tissue.
    Out of a random sample of 100 gun shot fatalities caused by .230 grain .45, NONE of the .45 bullets were deflected off of bone. NONE of the .45 bullets lost their energy before hitting vital tissue.

    I think in his effort to be straight forward and honest he led to some confusion.
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  8. #37
    Ex Member Array G19inLV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    No contradiction if read in its entirety. What he says is that a well placed shot from a .380 & 9mm often do not make it to any vital areas because they tend to deflect off of bone or lose their energy before they hit vital tissue. While he has never ever seen that happen with a .45.

    The point being as I read it is that a properly place shot with a 9mm or .380 might not hit any vital organs and so may not stop an assault. While a well placed shot with a .45 will ALWAY hit a vital organ

    As others have said the reason he says that he sees more 9mm and .380 on his table is because that is what BG most often use.

    He honestly and accurately have said that;
    Out of a random sample of 100 gun shot fatalities caused by 9mm or .380 some of them had wounds that showed the bullets deflected off of bone or lost their energy before hitting vital tissue.
    Out of a random sample of 100 gun shot fatalities caused by .230 grain .45, NONE of the .45 bullets were deflected off of bone. NONE of the .45 bullets lost their energy before hitting vital tissue.

    I think in his effort to be straight forward and honest he led to some confusion.
    Not to mention is was looong, lol.

    Anyway, I don't know about anyone else, but if I am confronted with having to shoot someone (let's hope never) I am not going to stop shooting until he is on the ground not moving, rather or not I have a 9mm or a .45. It's not like with a .45 you are going to take one shot, see if it worked, and than shoot again if necessary.

    Yes, ballistically, .45 may be "better", but in reality, does it really matter?

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G19inLV View Post
    Yes, ballistically, .45 may be "better", but in reality, does it really matter?
    Not one bit. As he says anything can happen once the lead flies. There is alot of dead space COM. So even a perfect center of mass shot can miss everything. I carry a .45 because I want to improve my chances every little way I can. To be perfectly honest having had most of the bones in my body broken, run over by trucks, shot, stabbed. strangled and clubbed I have a serious aversion to pain and at my age scars are not as cool as they are cracked up to be. So that little extra umph makes me feel a little more secure and hopeful that I can do unto others BEFORE they do unto me
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  10. #39
    Member Array dwyermw's Avatar
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    I felt the OP did an excellent job of reporting what he saw and what he concluded. I carried a LW Colt Officers .45 for over 20 CCW and recently shifted to a Glock 19. Why? I have concluded for myself that if I were ever to have a confrontation that the chances of multiple BG's require more capacity. Adding the carry comfort/weight and my older age and shot control factors also weigh in the decision.
    The penetration factor is just one part of an equation.
    Take time to practise correctly - quick, first shot hits to COM. Carry always. Make a decision and act decisively.

  11. #40
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    Great Post!

    This was a great post and came closer to confirming many of the assumptions I had already made. Caliber wars are never going to end, and there is no way people will be convinced with whatever facts and data you put in front of them.

    I think much of the resistance from the responses comes down to something I have expressed on forums several times. No one wants to think that they made a bad purchase or that their gear is not the best thing in the world. I don't care if we are talking about guns or toilet seats.

    Let me just clarify that I carry a 9mm during the day and a .45 by the bed at night. Note, the only reason I carry a 9mm is because of size. If it were up to me, I would carry a .45 if I could get the same form factor and near round count. I have been starting to consider changing because of the accuracy and comfort level I have with my .45acp.

    I love how you got the responses from the 9mm crowd on incomplete data. You can never gather enough information to stop "what if's". For example posts about 9mm's may be more lethal because you see more of them in morgue. That is just plain silly!

    Here is another bit of information that I thought I would pass and I have heard this countless times from many different people. Let me start by saying that I lived in an area that had a large prison. I would say that I knew about 100 correctional officers and at least 10 were family members. Out of the 100 people I have known over the years, quite a few did different jobs in corrections from guards/medical/admins/councilors, and many worked directly with prisoners.

    That statement that I had heard time and time again was that many of the prisoners who had been shot in the past, were shot by 9mm's. Many of these guys were hit several times and some how managed to survive and go to prison.

    You ask the same guards if they have heard the same thing about prisoners claiming to have been shot by a .45acp, and I can recall only one or two story's. Each of those stories the prisoner only got hit one time and none were multiples. Let me say that this information was recounted to me by several different people.

    I would like to ask if there are any CO's on this board who have this same type of information from data gathered on the job. I am very interested to see responses.

    I wanted to share this information because there are quite a few people shot by 9mm's who don't make it to the morgue and this type of informations adds to the validity of the main post on this forum.
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  12. #41
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post

    here
    here
    here
    and
    here

    About every 6 months
    Yup.

    And not just here but pretty much on _every_ gunfu forum in existence that has even light discussion toward combat/defense.

    Further it's been floating around for what 4 or 5yrs. now?

    As well wasn't this widely debunked in the end, by other persons who work in the same field as medical technicians/coroners?
    IIRC I first saw his original postings and response at SigForum.com.

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  13. #42
    Member Array Phantoms's Avatar
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    I see some have questioned outcome differences of 9mm compared to the 357 bullet, claiming about nearly the same diameter, weight and muzzle velocity. I think many fail to realize there's a lot more going on than just those three things between different classes of handguns. There is also physical bullet design dimensions, barrel twist, basic gun design, etc. These are usually not things that are the exact same between different classes of handguns and can completely change the dynamics of what's going on when a bullet hits something.

    Heck, test show that even in a single class of handgun that different brand bullets will behave differently. Start throwing all the other variables of different caliber handgun designs into the picture and you'll quickly understand why just comparing off of weight, diameter and muzzle velocity of a bullet is pointless.

  14. #43
    Member Array Steve O's Avatar
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    And here I thought the OP had answered all questions before they were even asked. It was so long it had to be bulltork.

  15. #44
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    This thread is not without any merit. In fact, if it made one person here think and consider what the message was, then it served a valuable purpose.

    I'll stand as an example..........After breezing though it, I decided that I really wanted to have my HD 12 GA bedside rather than locked in the cabinet. I moved it today.

    I had moved it into the cabinet after having it at the range, and just never got around to bringing it into the BR. Me bad.

    So that is an example of a good outcome from this article.
    Richard

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  16. #45
    New Member Array jimpander's Avatar
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    That was the best, most informative post I've read anywhere! I you write a book i will buy it. Thanks!

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